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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #361
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I just don't think the functions and such allign seamlessly when it comes to the individual level, nor that people necessarily HAVE to fall definitively in one place or the other. The places are real/valid in terms of a framework and 'starting point', if you will - a framework of 16 varying possibilities/trends. And conceptually that's very cut and dry and pretty and nice. And useful for discussing differences in personality - absolutely. And certainly some people fall quite solidly in one place. I just think it's dangerous ground when it comes to *applying* all of this in real life -- applying these nice crisp theoretical differences to everyone in real life. That's all. And I think it's especially easy to forget that, again, there's a myriad of other things that impact human behavior and interaction - various neuroses, individual life experiences, etc. So what people may throw off as 'Fe' when trying to showcase what Fe is, theoretically, may instead be codependency due to various things, and have nothing to do with Fe. You know, stuff like that.
    I agree. I suspect everyone in thread agrees with this. If no one says anything in response to your post, cascadeco, it may be because they take what you've written there as fact and for granted; myself, I assume those boundaries are already obvious within the context of discussing typology. Behaviour cannot be explained only by typology, nor likely should it be ... but there are patterns of thinking, patterns in the way people interpret the world. The patterns are interesting to examine, to discover.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This is entirely the source of differences. What is all-too-often missing is the Fe-Fi transformation of the raw data. At least one of the two people involved in a conversation has to do the work of the transformation, and it's best if both do it. The "transformation" is, in simple terms, the ability to think in both spaces, that is to say, hear the Fi-raw-data in one's own Fi-space, and the Fe-raw-data in one's own Fe-space. The human brain is quite amazing: if one can switch gears, and listen to others in their own spaces, the transformation to the alternative space isn't that difficult. It's not unlike learning and thinking in a foreign language, or learning to play a new musical instrument: it's not a one-to-one mapping, and it's possible to have entities in one space that simply cannot exist in the other, but mostly it translates over.
    @bold: as the Fi-user, I feel like I am the one primarily burdened with this task. I think in another thread I said I feel like a universal translator IRL. Te and Fe both speak with such authority that one must enter that space; it's also why, when I try to talk Fi here and get pounced all over, it is so darn frustrating. Like, can't I talk the way I think anywhere? lol

    I would suggest that while one certainly has one's preferred mode of thinking, it is something of a character flaw to refuse to recognize the validity of the alternative mode of thinking, especially for communication and interpersonal harmony. That means being able to recognize the alternate mode, and making an effort to understand it in its own terms, before applying one's preferred thinking-space.
    I don't know how easy it is for the Te or Fe user to do this though. It's contrary somehow to what's perceived as objectivity, even about subjective things. Fe users seem to be the ones saying there's less of a difference than Fi users insist there is. And I, as an Fi-user, do insist there's a difference. IRL, it wouldn't look very obvious though.

    Where these threads tend to break down appears to be when a failure to successfully understand/transform the information between thinking-spaces is interpreted as an attack or a willful insistence that information is only properly evaluated in one's preferred thinking space.
    I agree with this.

    Moreover the question isn't whether Fe vs Fi plays a role in misunderstandings of this nature, but rather how and to what degree. People will occasionally misapply or mislabel aspects of these misunderstandings, but that shouldn't be taken as evidence that Fe vs Fi considerations don't apply, but rather should be understood as a failure of understanding in that particular instance.
    Agreed.

    I suspect that part of the problem is that the Fe-Fi transformation is drastically limited by text communication. Body language, tone of voice, awareness of other contexts only visible to those present in person, all contribute to one's ability to do this transformation. One needs to learn new, text-based, cues to properly transform the understandings, e.g., "if someone is speaking in terms of how-I-feel, then one should read the words in Fi-space, not in Fe-space."
    Yes, well said. Generally though, I just get a feeling of who gets it and who doesn't (for example - who is enthusiastic or who seems annoyed, guarded etc) and work more from those feelings.

    Difficult though, yes, in writing, because the Fe-users are trying very hard to keep emotional expression out of their posts and that is the info I need. IRL, I can read a whole lot more, including all of the body language cues etc. Speaking reveals more too because the spontaneous nature of verbal communication demands a much brisker pace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    A problem I have with that video is that there's a difference between those two that seems to me more accountable by instinct variants than mbti. The guy seems very SP, probably least SO; the woman seems very SO, probably least SP. I relate a lot more to the guy at times, as far as the way he describes the kind of boundaries he needs.
    Yes, I see variants at play there too - and I agree there is more than typology going on, which is why when VJ talks about things like party behaviours, it all falls apart IMO. (And she touches him all the time ... poor guy, invading his space. This video is just *ugh*.)
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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  2. #362
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Now I'm confused. Where was I arguing that nothing within this system could be a useful way of interpreting and understanding other people's behaviour? I've participated fairly extensively on this thread and while I recognize that these problems are greatly exaccerbated by communicating only via text w/o body language and expressions etc as well as that the system has it's limitations I have seen enough Fi users express differences that I've taken time to try to understand this better. I've persisted through a lot of Fe/Fi threads and I thought made some progress in understanding and relating differently.

    When you say something like that Orobas, it makes me feel that either 1) those efforts go unnoticed and don't count 2) Fi tends to overgeneralize about some things. I realize the emphasis is more on the feeling behind words rather than specific words, but when working with Fe users that kind of generalization can be really offensive because it is inaccurate and seems to disregard others who are trying very hard. 3) You are seeing people more as types, rather than understanding that type definite impacts their behaviours, but so does their interaction with other people and what they've taken away from them, desire to see things from other perspectives, life experience and exposure to people who use other functions. I think this could be a mistake.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    But what this says Poki is that if you are not up to Fe standards-experience age degree, your information will not be accepted.

    If you are already outside of the Fe circle trying to work your way inwards with new information to expand the circle...well it just wont happen...unless you play by Fe rules and mannerisms and sneak in. But since NFPs dont use much Fe, how long can we sneak under the radar, especially with an Fe user as astute as an Fe dom. Eventually we will do something silly and set the fe alarm bells ringing, thus be discredited as an valid information source.
    I feel the same way with Te and Ti When you figure it out let me know. The only suggestion I have is to not care. Live, let live, and go seperate ways on that situation, value, etc.

  4. #364
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    oh not specifically Cascadeco...

    be cautious as I am afraid you have read it as a value judgment. That was unintended.

    But the entire thread has sort of been split consistently with all Fe users I have noted -You cant understand people via jungian functional analysis. People are too complicated. To do so is "dangerous". Another topic has been that there isnt much difference between Fi and Fe in the real world and the issues seen are exaggerated.

    The INTJs, myself, and some of the other NFPs are saying on both topics-you know we do this/see this and, while recognizing limitations, it can be done okay, it works, perhaps Fi sees the world in a different way and supplies different information, thus provides an alternatly valid way of viewing the world.

    But this doesnt seem to gain any traction with the Fe users-we keep repeating the same cycle over and over again. Like we cant hear each other properly.

    Thus it is at a point of understanding why we cant hear each other and why we cant see each other-thus the exploration of Ti. My apologies for the value judgment implied by lazy-but when the entp speaks it seems best to quote as directly as possible in case it is meaningful.

    EDIT_Just to emphasize, my apologies if the term was offensive. I think the convo started on your post in particular as it was a very open minded look at the situation-it comes very close to legitimizing two viewpoints, thus it was a productive place to start and a great thought provoking comment. My apologies if it felt that it highlighted you in particular as I do very much respect your thoughts o the subject.
    Thanks for the clarification... I just wasn't understanding the new turn of the thread after I posted, nor was I really understanding why my post or any other Fe's was in some way more rigid/unaccepting than posts offering counterpoints. Again, I was just trying to explain things more and unless my explanation was indecipherable (which is possible, they tend to be long), it's not like I'm stating mbti/functions are utterly useless. I don't think I conveyed that. ??
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  5. #365
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Fe is for codependent busybodies. Fi is for entitled, solipsistic drama queens.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  6. #366
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Now I'm confused. Where was I arguing that nothing within this system could be a useful way of interpreting and understanding other people's behaviour? I've participated fairly extensively on this thread and while I recognize that these problems are greatly exaccerbated by communicating only via text w/o body language and expressions etc as well as that the system has it's limitations I have seen enough Fi users express differences that I've taken time to try to understand this better. I've persisted through a lot of Fe/Fi threads and I thought made some progress in understanding and relating differently.

    When you say something like that Orobas, it makes me feel that either 1) those efforts go unnoticed and don't count 2) Fi tends to overgeneralize about some things. I realize the emphasis is more on the feeling behind words rather than specific words, but when working with Fe users that kind of generalization can be really offensive because it is inaccurate and seems to disregard others who are trying very hard. 3) You are seeing people more as types, rather than understanding that type definite impacts their behaviours, but so does their interaction with other people and what they've taken away from them, desire to see things from other perspectives, life experience and exposure to people who use other functions. I think this could be a mistake.
    so-it isnt Fi-you are actually seeing NeTe seeking generalized rules to apply to people systems. (just to rescue the other Fi users)

    additionally-I am not only interested in simply this thread or this forum-but interactions that expand outwards. It may be that individuals make a great deal of progress as certain ways-but generalizations about type can be useful to capture areas which will end up being roadbumps over and over again. If it has taken this many back of ofrth convos to make even moderate progress, it makes sense that in the same convos in other places-the same roadbumps will be encountered.

    Fidelia you really have contributed substantially to understanding across Fe/Fi and communication diffs-which then confuses me when other Fe users say they are not real..Z buck and cascadeco also have been amazing in this regard as well as tallahah and other folks as well.

    But why does it take so very long to establish validity of those alternate views?

    In particular I get endlessly picked on, to the point of being told I have mental issues and need to seek consouling because I tend to dissect people interactions in terms of jungian functions. I dont mean to create angst...but I have been hearing these opinions for several months and I am interested in trying to understand why the way I see the world is so incomprehinsible to Fe, when it works so well. I listed a few examples earlier in the thread of how I interact with people and how i apply jungian functions, so i hope those cast more light and context on how I see the world and cut up the people pie, so to speak.

  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Fe is for codependent busybodies. Fi is for entitled, solipsistic drama queens.
    Fe J - Codependent; Fe P Busybody
    Te J - Codependent; Te P Busy body

    cant really make the last one match up easily.

    So to swith Fi to Ti would I use head case instead of drama queen?

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    I feel the same way with Te and Ti When you figure it out let me know. The only suggestion I have is to not care. Live, let live, and go seperate ways on that situation, value, etc.
    I know, I know but my toes are all bleeding and purpole from getting squished and UI feel like being an entitled, solipsistic drama queen. Also, I want to use this stuff to help people-I am so kick ass happy thrilled to be doing so-that I need to understand the source of the confusion better.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Thanks for the clarification... I just wasn't understanding the new turn of the thread after I posted, nor was I really understanding why my post or any other Fe's was in some way more rigid/unaccepting than posts offering counterpoints. Again, I was just trying to explain things more and unless my explanation was indecipherable (which is possible, they tend to be long), it's not like I'm stating mbti/functions are utterly useless. I don't think I conveyed that. ??
    Sorry this could be the evils of Ne dragging everything off a cliff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Fe is for codependent busybodies. Fi is for entitled, solipsistic drama queens.
    oh, hehehe, I love chococat.

  9. #369
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Thanks for the clarification... I just wasn't understanding the new turn of the thread after I posted, nor was I really understanding why my post or any other Fe's was in some way more rigid/unaccepting than posts offering counterpoints. Again, I was just trying to explain things more and unless my explanation was indecipherable (which is possible, they tend to be long), it's not like I'm stating mbti/functions are utterly useless. I don't think I conveyed that. ??
    In your opinion, to what degree are they useful? At what point do we throw up our hands and say, "individual differences" instead of "typological differences?"

    A bit of what I'm seeing seems along the lines of

    A: See the typological pattern, here?
    B: Well, it isn't ALL typology.
    A: What do you mean that typology has nothing to do with it?
    B: I didn't say that typology has nothing to do with it.

    What's missing is discussing the degree. How much is typological, how much isn't. Instead, we hear "absolute" statements from each other, when absolute statements are not implied. I really doubt anyone here is saying that typology explains everything, or that typology explains nothing, but instead people get caught up because they think they hear such things implied.

    Ironically, hearing these absolute statements that aren't intended is likely partially due to typological differences.

  10. #370
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    What in God's fuck is a chococat?
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

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