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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #351

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    ummm, so she said something along the lines of tert Ti recognizes there is a logic system, sees it is broken and needs tweaks, but doesnt want to get down into the system and sort the tweaks out, so defaults back to Fe...? So Sorry Poki I am remembering what she said-so she may have phrased it in a way that makes more sense. My apologies as it may be blurry...

  2. #352
    Active Member Array Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    ummm, so she said something along the lines of tert Ti recognizes there is a logic system, sees it is broken and needs tweaks, but doesnt want to get down into the system and sort the tweaks out, so defaults back to Fe...? So Sorry Poki I am remembering what she said-so she may have phrased it in a way that makes more sense. My apologies as it may be blurry...
    So do you think that most people on here are tertiary lazy? Being Ni lazy lol

  3. #353

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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I would suggest that while one certainly has one's preferred mode of thinking, it is something of a character flaw to refuse to recognize the validity of the alternative mode of thinking, especially for communication and interpersonal harmony. That means being able to recognize the alternate mode, and making an effort to understand it in its own terms, before applying one's preferred thinking-space.

    Where these threads tend to break down appears to be when a failure to successfully understand/transform the information between thinking-spaces is interpreted as an attack or a willful insistence that information is only properly evaluated in one's preferred thinking space.
    I am hesitant to call this a character flaw as that implies a value judgment. I suppose one could use the term close-minded, but again that is a value judgment.

    Highlander mentioned before that we may be applying our values upon them by seeking very open and honest exposure of feelings such as an Fi user might display...a questionable thing to do and an unfair expectation says my Fi....

    however might it be that simply be expecting Fe value to flex in a way that allows for alternative understandings, by simply expecting them to be open to other interpretations, other ways of seeing the world-we are violating very core Fe values? If Fe is truly felt by an individual Fe user to be a universal moral truth-any alternative worldview becomes morally offensive.

    If so, is it morally okay from an Fi perspective to try and convince them to be more open minded on the topic? Fi is live and let live typically-thus to try and modify someone else's value-even Fe values-is only done under pretty dire circumstances.

    symmetrically two Te users would simply keep presenting objective data-truths-to modify Te decisions. I wonder how two ENFJs argue? I dunno...

    In any case I understand the pattern now, understand my worldview is totally legit, and shall keep on building patterns.

  4. #354

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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    So do you think that most people on here are tertiary lazy? Being Ni lazy lol
    haha, I dunno..I could be said to be Te lazy. I use it like a club and then dont really follow up with the details like a REAL Te user would. The less differentiated the function, the more clumsy our use of it will be. I think the interesting part is that folks who can tag team that tert function can have really interesting perspectives-NiTi, NeTe, NiFi, TiNi...so there is room for error if not cross checked by the aux function, but the perspective and analysis put forth can still be quite interesting. In U's example...it would be like peeking into an extra dimension that most folks cant see into...It is an unusual perspective but not invalid-just different.

  5. #355
    Active Member Array Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I am hesitant to call this a character flaw as that implies a value judgment. I suppose one could use the term close-minded, but again that is a value judgment.

    Highlander mentioned before that we may be applying our values upon them by seeking very open and honest exposure of feelings such as an Fi user might display...a questionable thing to do and an unfair expectation says my Fi....

    however might it be that simply be expecting Fe value to flex in a way that allows for alternative understandings, by simply expecting them to be open to other interpretations, other ways of seeing the world-we are violating very core Fe values? If Fe is truly felt by an individual Fe user to be a universal moral truth-any alternative worldview becomes morally offensive.

    If so, is it morally okay from an Fi perspective to try and convince them to be more open minded on the topic? Fi is live and let live typically-thus to try and modify someone else's value-even Fe values-is only done under pretty dire circumstances.

    symmetrically two Te users would simply keep presenting objective data-truths-to modify Te decisions. I wonder how two ENFJs argue? I dunno...

    In any case I understand the pattern now, understand my worldview is totally legit, and shall keep on building patterns.
    Through Se and Ni. You really cant change Fe values unless the person wants to change just like Te values.

  6. #356

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    you mean they argue via new perceptions? by supplying new data? Two Te doms would argue by supplying objective measurements or data to convince each other...I suppose the new data is Si or Ni, thus alters their Te judgment.

    So you would keep asking the ENFJ to see things from a new value perspective? But wouldnt it need to be a new Fe value perspective? Hehehe, since I dont use fe I still lose.

    ESFJ1: Well, I wouldnt wear red shoes to the party.
    ESFJ2: Well red shoes are actual okat to wear to parties in the afternoon on golf courses.
    ESFJ1: Oh, I see...well i suppose it's okay then. (Goes and buys red shoes?)

    EDIT-also I have gone head to head with some pretty Si bound ESTJs and if the data is good...they just need a few days to implement. Same with IXTJs and ENTJs. If they refuse to change it is typically an Fi issue, not a Te issue.

  7. #357
    4x9 Array cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau
    I would suggest that while one certainly has one's preferred mode of thinking, it is something of a character flaw to refuse to recognize the validity of the alternative mode of thinking, especially for communication and interpersonal harmony. That means being able to recognize the alternate mode, and making an effort to understand it in its own terms, before applying one's preferred thinking-space.

    Where these threads tend to break down appears to be when a failure to successfully understand/transform the information between thinking-spaces is interpreted as an attack or a willful insistence that information is only properly evaluated in one's preferred thinking space.

    Moreover the question isn't whether Fe vs Fi plays a role in misunderstandings of this nature, but rather how and to what degree. People will occasionally misapply or mislabel aspects of these misunderstandings, but that shouldn't be taken as evidence that Fe vs Fi considerations don't apply, but rather should be understood as a failure of understanding in that particular instance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I asked my ENTP about how to peacefully explain to an Fe user that you would like to agree to disagree...

    She just stared at me. she said typically you just gently say "Ah that's useful advice, thanks!" then dont take the advice. She said another option is to be very sarcastic and mean but you will typically end the relationship at this point. She didnt have an answer for how to explain to an Fe user you had heard the message but wanted to agree to disagree as you see the world in different ways. This points to a worrying trend-that Fe may have a very difficult time admitting there is another valid way to view the world. As we discussed the issue she said it may be that Fe is offended on a value level by the notion that their are alternatives to Fe-thus will continue forward to insist upon the Fe judgment.

    She also said the INFJs in the thread may be falling prey to Ti being a bit lazy but I dont understand the implications of this or what she meant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas
    I am hesitant to call this a character flaw as that implies a value judgment. I suppose one could use the term close-minded, but again that is a value judgment.

    Highlander mentioned before that we may be applying our values upon them by seeking very open and honest exposure of feelings such as an Fi user might display...a questionable thing to do and an unfair expectation says my Fi....

    however might it be that simply be expecting Fe value to flex in a way that allows for alternative understandings, by simply expecting them to be open to other interpretations, other ways of seeing the world-we are violating very core Fe values? If Fe is truly felt by an individual Fe user to be a universal moral truth-any alternative worldview becomes morally offensive.

    If so, is it morally okay from an Fi perspective to try and convince them to be more open minded on the topic? Fi is live and let live typically-thus to try and modify someone else's value-even Fe values-is only done under pretty dire circumstances.

    symmetrically two Te users would simply keep presenting objective data-truths-to modify Te decisions. I wonder how two ENFJs argue? I dunno...

    In any case I understand the pattern now, understand my worldview is totally legit, and shall keep on building patterns.
    I'm not really sure what's going on now.

    Are the comments re. 'inability to recognize alternative modes of thinking' directed towards me? It seems that that train of thought/etc occurred after or as a result of my post . In my earlier post, which uumlau questioned, I was citing that part of the disconnect in these sorts of threads is the fact that different people apply and view mbti differently. Then I elaborated as to how I tend to view mbti and its limitations, because I was asked, and why I thought it was 'dangerous' to apply mbti to all human behavior and such. I'm aware other people view and utilize mbti differently than I. So now that I have posted my own thoughts on all of it, for having those thoughts/perspective, it means my and other INFJ's Ti is being lazy? I guess I don't understand how myself and other INFJ's stating views and such differs from others who express their differing usage of mbti - how is one more or less rigid than the other? We're all doing rather the same thing. I'm truly not really understanding what's going on now.

    But anyway - I myself have used the 'I think we need to agree to disagree' line before, and it's fine by me.
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  8. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    you mean they argue via new perceptions? by supplying new data? Two Te doms would argue by supplying objective measurements or data to convince each other...I suppose the new data is Si or Ni, thus alters their Te judgment.

    So you would keep asking the ENFJ to see things from a new value perspective? But wouldnt it need to be a new Fe value perspective? Hehehe, since I dont use fe I still lose.

    ESFJ1: Well, I wouldnt wear red shoes to the party.
    ESFJ2: Well red shoes are actual okat to wear to parties in the afternoon on golf courses.
    ESFJ1: Oh, I see...well i suppose it's okay then. (Goes and buys red shoes?)
    Se uses perception of a real situation, then Ni provides the personal understanding of the situation. Either Fe accepts it or not. Atleast this is from my POV. Its based on how much trust a person has of the person trying to change the Fe value. A dom Fe is more likely to trust experience, age, degree, etc.

  9. #359

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    oh not specifically Cascadeco...

    be cautious as I am afraid you have read it as a value judgment. That was unintended.

    But the entire thread has sort of been split consistently with all Fe users I have noted -You cant understand people via jungian functional analysis. People are too complicated. To do so is "dangerous". Another topic has been that there isnt much difference between Fi and Fe in the real world and the issues seen are exaggerated.

    The INTJs, myself, and some of the other NFPs are saying on both topics-you know we do this/see this and, while recognizing limitations, it can be done okay, it works, perhaps Fi sees the world in a different way and supplies different information, thus provides an alternatly valid way of viewing the world.

    But this doesnt seem to gain any traction with the Fe users-we keep repeating the same cycle over and over again. Like we cant hear each other properly.

    Thus it is at a point of understanding why we cant hear each other and why we cant see each other-thus the exploration of Ti. My apologies for the value judgment implied by lazy-but when the entp speaks it seems best to quote as directly as possible in case it is meaningful.

    EDIT_Just to emphasize, my apologies if the term was offensive. I think the convo started on your post in particular as it was a very open minded look at the situation-it comes very close to legitimizing two viewpoints, thus it was a productive place to start and a great thought provoking comment. My apologies if it felt that it highlighted you in particular as I do very much respect your thoughts o the subject.

  10. #360

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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Se uses perception of a real situation, then Ni provides the personal understanding of the situation. Either Fe accepts it or not. Atleast this is from my POV. Its based on how much trust a person has of the person trying to change the Fe value. A dom Fe is more likely to trust experience, age, degree, etc.
    But what this says Poki is that if you are not up to Fe standards-experience age degree, your information will not be accepted.

    If you are already outside of the Fe circle trying to work your way inwards with new information to expand the circle...well it just wont happen...unless you play by Fe rules and mannerisms and sneak in. But since NFPs dont use much Fe, how long can we sneak under the radar, especially with an Fe user as astute as an Fe dom. Eventually we will do something silly and set the fe alarm bells ringing, thus be discredited as an valid information source.

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