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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I think I understood it in theory but a lot of what's been communicated here has helped to make it real.

    So which do you prefer?
    Well I was saying I identify more with Fi, but not as an Fi dom would.

    I also don't think I have this shield of reserve with constant refinement of what I want to say before I say it, either. I'm more likely to talk through things and blather.

    Sometimes when I'm on the forum I feel like I'm a kitten pouncing around looking for something to play with, batting a crumpled ball of paper here or chasing a mouse with a bell there, and hiding behind a couch and attacking people feet as they walk by if I get bored and can't find any toys.

  2. #322
    Senior Member Array Synapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    synapse i read your posts and I adore them-They are so Fi driven that I often have to spend time pondering them though, so I dont reply, but I greatly value them. Your Fi is almost Ni-ish in it's search for universality and there are many pieces I find familiar, but I dont know how to expand upon them very well.
    Thanks. When I start talking, its in curious form. Even I look at it go whoah, I just wrote that. Then I read it and realise some of it is convoluted and would do with a breather. However its an interesting way of interpreting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Ah, sweet inferior function.

    But the INJs don't have a judgment e as our primary concern. Security doesn't reside (wholly) in recognising order out of disorder. That, despite what the INFJs have been saying about the comfort of knowing where everyone else stands, is still the EJs. No, to have at the limits of the INJ vision we need an ESP to assert for us what intuition really is compared to the true flow of reality going on around us even now.

    But still... "unobtainable perfection"...

    I don't see perfect images. If actually called upon to decide something I'll see utilitarian steps.

    Steps toward... whatever was required. The vision itself resides in the background. Despite being the dominant concern, it's rendered secondary when one is called upon to speak.

    If there is some INJ version of the unobtainable perfection, it's less a perfection and more a simple.... [placeholder for a word]. If the vision is ever completely articulated, it ceases to be "the"vision. It enters the past at that point and counts as grist for the new vision. Perhaps into that placeholder above should go the word "revolution", that word just in the sense of constant movement, but not revolving for that would suggest cycles, which isn't quite what's wanted here. "Movement", perhaps.

    Heh. Intuition as unobtainable movement. All possible movements and the point where they all overlap in no movement.

    Pffft.
    Its interesting you should start with ah, sweet inferior function and end with pffft. As if I said something dismissible and disdainful. Unsure about some aspects, thanks for the clarifications. What is the primary concern for INTJ? Its different for INFJ too that's true to form, there is a distinction somewhere.

    I like the utilitarian steps bit. The good part is you discard possibilities without getting bogged in favour of probabilities that work for you and know what your on about since birth, creating the goals you want to shape the future and its natural to work in great time frames for some that others would find incomprehensible. Nah, revolution sounds off somehow, can't place my finger on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I don't think it needs to be so perfect. For example - covering 80% of the likely scenarios might easily be deemed good enough.
    I wrote the thoughts when I was tired. While we do like to look at personality preferences as a framework, there are subtle differences in the styles of thoughts based on other factors and conditions, those are just a few and the drives are different on an individual to individual basis very much.

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    I think I can see where you are coming but I wanted to make a distinction between phony/bullshitters and Fe. Fe can be about diplomacy but there are TRULY phony people in the world regardless of Fe or Fi My Fe is usually careful about trusting people. If someone seems to be too good to be true (with extreme charisma and social skills)or if the actions don't align with their words, then I wait to see if they are genuine. I have met people who I have had a really bad feeling about from the get go and my first impressions are usually right. That sounds so judgmental but typically when I give these people a chance, I get burned almost every time.
    Nods. When you meet those kinds of people your inviting them into your awareness for something, if you do invite them and disregard the intuition that's telling you to disengage, and practically screams hoarse at you with the bad feeling vibe to not go there but you still do. Its to learn something from the experience of the burning that is driven by your subconscious to find the answers in wanting to progress towards that which is more pleasing in your life. Its hard to explain, those sort of energies would continually be drawn to you until you gain some insight why that is happening and find a clear resolve. Once the personal resolve happens then different kinds of situations arise. When that tug remains unresolved like a mirroring of a shadow aspect those kinds of energies find you rather than you finding them.

  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    I think I can see where you are coming but I wanted to make a distinction between phony/bullshitters and Fe. Fe can be about diplomacy but there are TRULY phony people in the world regardless of Fe or Fi My Fe is usually careful about trusting people. If someone seems to be too good to be true (with extreme charisma and social skills)or if the actions don't align with their words, then I wait to see if they are genuine. I have met people who I have had a really bad feeling about from the get go and my first impressions are usually right. That sounds so judgmental but typically when I give these people a chance, I get burned almost every time.
    Yup but I can tell you the difference between a fake ENFJ and a fake ENFP though...a fake ENFP means what they say, but totally flake out on you, and you get this vibe from them...like they say all these things like "oh yeah we should hang out and do this or that" and they're sincere, it's just that they get distracted and end up in Texas next week when they were supposed to hang out with you, instead. They forget about you. They're fake not because they consciously plan to dupe you, but because they don't put any commitment behind their words. ESFPs can be this way too.

    A fake ENFJ smiles in your face and talks about you behind your back, and you always get this kind of uneasy feeling like you can't quite trust them even though they technically follow through.

    My ENFJ sister gives me a mild version of this feeling sometimes, although I don't think she's "fake"...I think she just tries too hard to please everyone and doesn't like to take sides among family members, so this requires emotional distance and social chess.

    I can even elaborate on this and point the finger at my younger self. I remember being about 20 and having friends say things like, "Yeah Marm will be nice but never call you" (and inwardly I loved this person as a good friend!) and had not one but TWO female friends complain that I had "abandoned them" when I moved to Los Angeles and then to Las Vegas, respectively. I didn't mean to abandon them...

    When I was with my ex, he called me "the stray cat"...although I never cheated on him, it's just not in me to be that way...I would run off and come back. I get claustrophobic if someone tries to control me too much. More so when I was very young.

    I'm more mature now, though. Maybe this is why it's harder to determine my type, I'm older, and maybe show more shadow functions and affected learned skills.

  5. #325
    Active Member Array Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    This thread has been very enlightenting.

    I am left a bit confused on a few issues:

    I am somewhat saddened by the thought that if attempt to emotionally connect to an Fe user, in my mind to renew an Fi connection during times of stress, it will be taken as a request for them to act. This is very bizarre to me as if I needed them to act I would directly request they act on my behalf.

    I also realized I will project my ENFP worldview onto ENFJs. Meaning when they approach me in an emotionally expressive manner, I tune them out as they come across as irrational and overly emotional. I assume they are ranting and once they calm down, we can have a productive rational discussion, so I forgive and ignore the ranting-like I would to an ENFP. In reality it seems they are trying to deliver finalized judgments. Oh dear that's rather funny. oops. Hehehe.

    A question-assuming when Fe users approach and express an Fe judgment-What is the best way to say "I am sorry, I disagree. It seems we will need to agree to disagree over this topic as we see it differently" ? Typically I affirm them (Fi), then try and explain my position (Te)-which they describe as rationalization since they have judged it differently.

    The only way I can see an ENFJ as seeing a position as "rationalizing" is if you are accepting a lower position. Fe is not good at rationalizing, Ti is. I am really good at accepting rationalization as long as it doesnt affect me, when it affects me then there are areas I will not rationalize, I will not accept a lower position. This is the Fe push to do better then the position you are accepting. IMO this is a projection of there wants onto you as you have "rationalized" your wants down to where you will accept and let go of everything else. Its a sign of giving up. If it affects both Fi and Fe you will just have to agree to disagree and go seperate ways as neither will budge.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Inside, we may be accepting but I think it might come across to Fe users as they are being judged by not meeting this ideal. The ideal is considered as superior. In other words, the practical orientation doesn't feel accepted as "good enough." Then Fe considers Fi as being out of touch with reality. I don't know. Maybe I'm out of my league here .....
    Way out of yor league. I dont see it as idealistic at all. Infact I see Fi in regard to P types as overly accepting, sacrificing of ideals because of those Fi who think its "superior" which is why I think most relationships with 2 Fi users have problems. One thinks that Fi is superior and the other bends and just accepts it to realize how unsuperior it actually is.

    I have actually never considered Fi to be out of touch with reality, but out of touch with other methods besides feeling things. Honestly most Fi Js I know feel as much about everything around them as they do about people. Like one big pot of Emo. Sorry, I am not trying to slam or be mean, just honest. I see an Fi guy as a guy who gets hard just thinking about or looking at a car. I go through life with my head in the gutter 85% of the time, but I dont "feel" everyone that walks past me. There are actually very few people I can actually "feel", 4 right now to be precise, one is fading big time.

  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    The only way I can see an ENFJ as seeing a position as "rationalizing" is if you are accepting a lower position. Fe is not good at rationalizing, Ti is. I am really good at accepting rationalization as long as it doesnt affect me, when it affects me then there are areas I will not rationalize, I will not accept a lower position. This is the Fe push to do better then the position you are accepting. IMO this is a projection of there wants onto you as you have "rationalized" your wants down to where you will accept and let go of everything else. Its a sign of giving up. If it affects both Fi and Fe you will just have to agree to disagree and go seperate ways as neither will budge.



    Way out of yor league. I dont see it as idealistic at all. Infact I see Fi in regard to P types as overly accepting, sacrificing of ideals because of those Fi who think its "superior" which is why I think most relationships with 2 Fi users have problems. One thinks that Fi is superior and the other bends and just accepts it to realize how unsuperior it actually is.

    I have actually never considered Fi to be out of touch with reality, but out of touch with other methods besides feeling things. Honestly most Fi Js I know feel as much about everything around them as they do about people. Like one big pot of Emo. Sorry, I am not trying to slam or be mean, just honest. I see an Fi guy as a guy who gets hard just thinking about or looking at a car. I go through life with my head in the gutter 85% of the time, but I dont "feel" everyone that walks past me. There are actually very few people I can actually "feel", 4 right now to be precise, one is fading big time.
    It's weird to me that you talk about "feeling" things as if it's some character flaw...it's kind of a gift.

    "the other bends and just accepts it to realize how unsuperior it actually is"

    this just sounds nasty, like you look down on him for using Fi, and you think he should feel bad about himself for having Fi, like he deserves to be in some position where he should submit to you

    maybe I'm reading this wrong...

  7. #327
    Administrator Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Way out of yor league. I dont see it as idealistic at all.
    *Hands baton over*

    it's all yours then poki

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  8. #328
    Active Member Array Poki's Avatar
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    I already knew how it would come across, which is why I made the statement I wasnt slamming him or trying to be mean. I know nothing of the guy. I am basing it off my knowledge of what I see as Fi in IJs when it comes to relationships in general. Please argue with what I explain, not my personal judgement of the situations I have witnessed in regard to P and J relationships. Sorry I see Fi when used to an unhealthy extent cause alot of problems. This is not my personaly experience at all as I am not Fi. you are the one who just pinned it on him, not me. I havent personally typed him, nor did I refer directly to him except to say he was way out of his league for thinking that Fe thinks that Fi is superior.

    I dont look down on him for using his Fi, I dont like the extent to which "some" people use Fi. I know nothing of him except for on this forum and I dont see that in him at all. I am basing this off of real life interaction of watching people interact.

    I dont need the baton, I am done. I just explained why I dont think of it as superior. *points baton back up to previous post I wrote*

    edit: healthy to me is when there is a balance.

  9. #329
    Administrator Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Sorry I see Fi when used to an unhealthy extent cause alot of problems. This is not my personaly experience at all as I am not Fi. you are the one who just pinned it on him, not me. I havent personally typed him, nor did I refer directly to him except to say he was way out of his league for thinking that Fe thinks that Fi is superior.

    I dont look down on him for using his Fi, I dont like the extent to which "some" people use Fi. I know nothing of him except for on this forum and I dont see that in him at all. I am basing this off of real life interaction of watching people interact.
    Interesting. Well, it is not necessary for you to type me as I have performed this task already.

    I also did not say that Fe thinks that Fi is superior, nor did I say anything was superior. Perhaps I wasn't clear and maybe you can clearly explain how the two types perceive each other. You seem to indicate that you know something about it - or at least enough to disagree with what I am saying.

    Edit: Your type is not provided. I won't attempt to type you, but what would you type yourself as?

    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    I see an Fi guy as a guy who gets hard just thinking about or looking at a car. I go through life with my head in the gutter 85% of the time, but I dont "feel" everyone that walks past me. There are actually very few people I can actually "feel", 4 right now to be precise, one is fading big time.
    Umm... Ok.

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  10. #330
    Filthy Apes! Array Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    Its interesting you should start with ah, sweet inferior function and end with pffft. As if I said something dismissible and disdainful.
    See, IPs, the world's fixed points. The EJs are the organisers, the IPs the points around which everyone else organises.

    The crack about inferior function was, in a backhanded sort of way, pointing out that while having a greater level of conscious control over a function does not guarantee skill at using it, it certainly grants the opportunity to become skilled. So, the perfect organisation the EJs dream of, given that issues of organisation and adequate evaluation of external worlds ARE what they DO invest substantial amounts of their conscious effort in, they might not be getting it wrong so often as to warrant giving up the image.

    And the "Pffft"? By default if it's another introvert responding, they're probably responding to their own ideas.

    Unsure about some aspects, thanks for the clarifications. What is the primary concern for INTJ?
    Given that adequate systematisation of the outer world is the secondary concern, and the vision that serves to provide answers when called upon is primary, then the primary concern is knowledge. (Which coincidentally dovetails really nicely with 5w4 enneagram discussions.) One is secure if one knows enough.

    Naturally, one does never know enough, so the ideal security, the perfect knowing, is... pffft, it'll arrive any day now.

    Its different for INFJ too that's true to form, there is a distinction somewhere.
    I have wondered about this too. I assume that since Fe is their tool that interactions with the world are that much more charged. Possibly it makes for something present in the INFJ type that doesn't have an INTJ analogy. Perhaps just that the vision is more shamanistic.

    Nah, revolution sounds off somehow, can't place my finger on it.
    Pffft.


    The number of times people can, do, and will always underestimate...

    The ideologies of extroverted intuition aren't enough to draw the true boundaries on introverted intuition. They're mighty fine for detecting the edges of introverted sensing, though.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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