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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #311
    Administrator Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I really don't identify my emotions as an integral part of my identity. It's more like symptoms or information that may direct me to look at factors I may not otherwise give as much weight to.
    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    i suppose this may also be one of the key differences between Fi and Fe users. i suppose to Fe users, emotions are more of a tool for understanding others? i think with all Fi users, our emotions are a big part of our identity.
    This is fascinating Fidelia - if this is how Fe is. It is like you separate the emotions and view them objectively in yourself and in others as part of an overall system. It may sound strange coming from an INTJ, but for me, the passion and emotion are everything. They are the fuel that drives all else. I'm with IndyAnnaJoan - it is a big part of my identity.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Similarly, Fi users should understand that when Fe users bring something up, it is because they are implying that the action that needs to be taken cannot be accomplished by them alone or they are trying to bring to someone's attention a serious problem that they have. They don't like to rock the boat needlessly because they assume their comments could be taken as a criticm or as conflict inducing. So you'll only hear those comments under extreme provokation, after a lot of thought, or if the consequences have been weighed and the potential good to be accomplished outweighs the potential bad. A lot of thought has gone into them bringing something up and it should not be trivialized or dismissed as thinking aloud. If it is, the Fe user will react in a way that seems very harsh and unpredictable to the Fi user. The issue is really that the Fe user thinks that the Fi user 1) Did not get the message for some reason - obliviousness? choosing to ignore? Fe user not being clear enough? 2) Is purposely being obtuse and is trying to upset them. This means that the Fe user will keep stating their case in stronger and stronger terms in such a way that the Fi user feels personally judged and rejected when they don't see what it was that they even did in the first place.
    Ohhh... That explains much *thinks about 100s of mistakes*

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post

    also, perhaps this is related to being a Ne dom - but it feels very uncomfortable to have everything i do always under scrutiny for how consistent i am (note: i am not very consistent when it comes to behavior) or to have someone predicting my next move (note: half the time i don't even know what's coming next).

    i think that's essentially the crux of my annoyance with the game. i don't have a problem with others having an impact on me in a way i can't choose, or being held accountable for my actions, but the game eliminates freedom. it doesn't leave any room to just be.
    Yes. It feels extraordinarily confining. We are actually probably way more predictable than we would like to think but the idea of somebody boxing me into a set of predictable behaviors does bother me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post

    Also: outside of even the mbti definition of judgment being different- using judgment is not the same thing as being judgmental. Using judgment is about discernment, without necessarily adding a positive or negative value; being judgmental is about being critical, assigning an excess of negative value to things. And the word 'judgy'- as it's used in this thread, I'd guess- would mean something inbetween, maybe a kind of hastiness to place positive or negative value? Because I agree that Fi'ers tend to assign positive or negative value faster than Fe'ers- for Fe'ers, it's more relative to context.
    Maybe this is not an Fi perspective - it is something else. Not sure. What might bother the non Fe user is that they feel they are being subtly judged. That is, the issue isn't confronted and so it festers. I like to get things out in the open. Confront the issue. Get it over with. Forget about it and move on. So, the fact that it isn't quite expressed but yet so very much felt, is annoying because I want to get it out in the open and come to closure. That being said, a lot of issues don't need to be confronted. You can navigate around them. So these expectations that I have for directness are probably unreasonable and counterproductive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I also realized I will project my ENFP worldview onto ENFJs. Meaning when they approach me in an emotionally expressive manner, I tune them out as they come across as irrational and overly emotional. I assume they are ranting and once they calm down, we can have a productive rational discussion, so I forgive and ignore the ranting-like I would to an ENFP. In reality it seems they are trying to deliver finalized judgments. Oh dear that's rather funny. oops. Hehehe.

    A question-assuming when Fe users approach and express an Fe judgment-What is the best way to say "I am sorry, I disagree. It seems we will need to agree to disagree over this topic as we see it differently" ? Typically I affirm them (Fi), then try and explain my position (Te)-which they describe as rationalization since they have judged it differently.
    So, I'm wondering in this case - what is the best response to the person who prefers Fe? We want to know!

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Here's the crux of what I find challenging:

    I get emotional sensory input from every person I meet. I'll just be shopping or out walking or driving my car and I get a read on people, as I have said before like a radio station that's always on in the background. Whether or not you believe that, or question the accuracy of what I "hear" - that isn't really important atm. What I want to convey is that I often get a read on an emotional state that doesn't match the outer behaviour or expression. Sometimes an Fe user will appear overly cheerful or overly angry and I don't feel like their inner state reflects the intensity of that expression. And sometimes, I can feel they are seething or frustrated or super-sad but when you ask them how they are doing, they say they are fine, and try to give off every appearance of doing so.

    Now, from reading so many responses in all of these threads, I understand more deeply why one might choose or not choose to emote, and how removed from emotions Fe users can tend to see themselves. But to a large percentage of the population, when you think you are concealing what you really feel, I want you to know you aren't, and because of that people can't help but think Fe is fake or phony. And, there are times that concealing emotions or using them like a tool doesn't serve anyone's purpose at all and will distance people from you that could help you work through those feelings and see that they often have a purpose, they have something to teach. At least that's what what feelings are like to me.


    So, I don't know what to do about that, fully, still. I try to gather enough data about a person to try to understand them as best I can, despite the contradictions I sense. It does seem unnecessarily complicated at times though - when I choose to emote I have no intention but being honest to how I really feel. No agenda.
    Bolded - This is somewhat how I feel. On the forum, I'm NOT able to capture the perceptions very well at all but IRL, I believe I am very sensitive/perceptive to the responses or reactions of others, and to understand what is behind those responses or reactions. I don't know if this is Ni/Se, Fi, or what it is. What I do know is that I seem to be able to quickly see through things and people who know me well have said that I can be extremely perceptive. One of my pet peeves is when I meet someone who I feel is a "bullshitter". I can pretty quickly sense a lack of sincerity while others seem to be oblivious to it. The end result is that I quickly feel that I cannot trust this person and once I feel this way, I believe little of what they have to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Being totally honest and open about how one feels - to me, that's the greatest gift.

    Thanks all for sharing here on how you see the world.
    Bolded - Here is the problem. I think we have an unrealistic expectation in this. We are overlaying our value structure on others. We are not accepting others for who they are. I do think though that if you look at the interaction between Fi and Fe that this might be a positive thing. The person who prefers Fi gets the Fe user to open up and say more of what they think or feel. The Fe user helps the Fi user to consider the practical interpersonal outcomes of their actions. Anyway, that's my theory.

    Edit: It may sound like I'm contradicting myself between the last paragraph and the one before it, or being contradictory, but I'm trying to understand both sides. It makes me wonder if I have been unfair at times in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    Now with INTJ's we can see that the strategic orbit of contingencies is meant to create plans for security on a grand scale that is seen as visionary. And it is in a way a formula to create a lasting valuation of their worth as a legacy for what their achievements and predictive patterning of their logical conclusions draw upon in their interpretation of things to come. Often for this reason their lack of malleable acceptance of adding other peoples pieces of their orbit around their linear one is because they are of the belief, and a primarily emotional belief not entirely logical, that their vision is secure, unshakable, provable, implementable and incomparable. Which it is in the time frame of that moment in time that the projection has occurred. The funny thing with that is in that moment the very human concept of time changes and then the other hundred contingencies that happen to counteract that dimensional reality are strange. When its multidimensional, and just like thousands, millions of thoughts that happen a day time is an illusion. The ego mind learns certain concrete values and uses them accordingly as the means to shape the reality of the outcomes that are projected into the future. And the predictive power applies from an emotional center because thoughts happen to form from emotions, without emotions the association to think of the logical vision in question would be unthinkable. Its like putting acid with fruit, it'll melt. And hence cold and calculating, and yet completely removed from the now and totally blinded by the many possibilities that their thinking limits them from. INTJ's think their contingencies and back up plans are for their security and the source comes from their insecurity in wanting to control their future. Without understanding that the human condition is created to exist in the now. And then INTJ blind spots are in the now and believe in their futures all the while creating some kind of insecurity in an unobtainable perfection. Like a mole tunneling lots of exit strategies only to find the whole infrastructure can still collapse, hence tunnel vision.
    I don't think it needs to be so perfect. For example - covering 80% of the likely scenarios might easily be deemed good enough.

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  2. #312
    Senior Member Array IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    hm, "feeding off" - do you mean feeding off positive responses from other people? i could see that easily. the nature of Ne and Fi together makes for good people pleasing because Ne is good at adapting in the moment and Fi is good at knowing what others want/need, and it's pleasing to F in general to please others. it can certainly be used in a negative way, or a fairly neutral way (eg accidentally leading people on when you're just trying to be nice to them), or at its best it can manifest the "champion" behavior for which keirsey named the type, to help people see the best in themselves and empower them to become their own advocates.
    the particular ENFP i was referring to was an unhealthy one, and i should have clarified that i believe ENFP's can be manipulative when they are unhealthy.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

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    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I agree that recognizing and confronting differences, and bridging that communication gap, is important and is also the main reason for mbti being useful in providing a framework for those differences.

    I think what happens though, when trying to turn it into more than it is (i.e. using it to account for every difference between people), is the misapplication of functions. I think this is the main divide when it comes to these sorts of discussions.
    At what point is it definitely a misapplication of functions?

    There are those who *appear* (note I'm saying 'appear', it might not in fact be what they're doing or proposing) to want to apply functions to every single human behavior as well as use them to explain all of the differences/communication gaps. Then there are those who argue against this - want to remove functions from the explanation of ALL differences, etc, and tend to see functions as somewhat limiting when it comes to explaining differences - at least, in real-world applications. I definitely see myself more in the second group.
    This perspective appears to discount the notion of having categories of differences.

    What I find interesting is that in spite of individuals each having individual traits that make each one unique, there are certain psychological categories such that an individual is either one or the other. That the individual, having chosen (for lack of a better word) one path over another (e.g., one function over another), becomes inherently different, in a categorical way, from those who chose the other path.

    Or more plainly, there wouldn't be an endless generation of "Fe/Fi threads" if the differences were not observably real and categorical.

    That said, yes, individuals are unique, and are best understood as individuals with unique traits. But the categorical differences remain useful: it quickly becomes obvious why person A readily understands an idea, and person B does not, or vice versa ... NOT because person A is so smart, or person B is so dumb, but that the thinking of each are in entirely different spaces. And that understanding is what allows one to explain an idea such that both people understand it.

  4. #314
    Administrator Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    At what point is it definitely a misapplication of functions?
    Good question. In truth, I think we probably do it all the time in the forum. This may sound odd but I see value in the exaggeration - for the purpose of forming an overall impression of something. That may elicit a strong negative reaction from some but the rough idea or approximation seems helpful to me anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Or more plainly, there wouldn't be an endless generation of "Fe/Fi threads" if the differences were not observably real and categorical.
    Right. Exactly I don't think there could possibly such a "division" or lack of understanding of the others perspective if there were not real differences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    One of my pet peeves is when I meet someone who I feel is a "bullshitter". I can pretty quickly sense a lack of sincerity while others seem to be oblivious to it. The end result is that I quickly feel that I cannot trust this person and once I feel this way, I believe little of what they have to say. .
    Awhile back I became much more careful IRL of assigning sincerity vs insincerity...once I understood i was really seeing Fi vs Fe. I realized I had been passing a value judgement on people based upon my own ability to detect Fi in them-I avoided "bullshitters" aka people who used a lot of Fe...OnceI understood they were not "phony" but just different in expression, I became very wary of what my Fi told me about trusting them. I still do not trust them with Fi, but I recognize they are not unstrustable with respect to Te. (perhaps this is what you see? just tossing it out there in that case...)

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Bolded - Here is the problem. I think we have an unrealistic expectation in this. We are overlaying our value structure on others. We are not accepting others for who they are.
    Are we overlaying our value structure or are we projecting our own worldview upon the other? (This may be the same thing to be honest) In either case it is a mistake I make badly. IRL I tend to only share Fi with others who I could sense Fi in, or who I could crack their Fe mask-typically ENTPs and INTPs with crazy Ne, but even they only get Te. If I can do neither I tend to remain at a friendly distance. Online, I cant see those unspoken Fi cues-thus can read far too much or too little into an interaction. It isnt that I require them to be emotionally open because I value it-it is that I misread Fe as Fi. This is very much a personal issue for me though. I am like a stupid little kid-because someone is nice to me, I assume they like me? IRL, the Fi unspoken feedback makes me much more tentative and much better at measuring interaction depth.

  6. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    This is fascinating Fidelia - if this is how Fe is. It is like you separate the emotions and view them objectively in yourself and in others as part of an overall system. It may sound strange coming from an INTJ, but for me, the passion and emotion are everything. They are the fuel that drives all else. I'm with IndyAnnaJoan - it is a big part of my identity.
    Yeah I relate to this seeing the world always in terms of passion and intensity of feeling, especially before I began to learn to be a bit more rational and think through some of my feelings. I understand what Fidelia is saying...but it's a skill I learned through necessity in adulthood in order for balance and maturity, not because it's how I was originally made. I also related to what IndyAnnaJoan said about Fi being less subtle.

    I have found this thread very helpful in learning about Fi and Fe to the point of being able to recognize them as valid concepts again.

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    Administrator Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Awhile back I became much more careful IRL of assigning sincerity vs insincerity...once I understood i was really seeing Fi vs Fe. I realized I had been passing a value judgement on people based upon my own ability to detect Fi in them-I avoided "bullshitters" aka people who used a lot of Fe...OnceI understood they were not "phony" but just different in expression, I became very wary of what my Fi told me about trusting them. I still do not trust them with Fi, but I recognize they are not unstrustable with respect to Te. (perhaps this is what you see? just tossing it out there in that case...)
    Yes this is what i am afraid I have been doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I have found this thread very helpful in learning about Fi and Fe to the point of being able to recognize them as valid concepts again.
    I think I understood it in theory but a lot of what's been communicated here has helped to make it real.

    So which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I cant see those unspoken Fi cues-thus can read far too much or too little into an interaction. It isnt that I require them to be emotionally open because I value it-it is that I misread Fe as Fi. This is very much a personal issue for me though. I am like a stupid little kid-because someone is nice to me, I assume they like me? IRL, the Fi unspoken feedback makes me much more tentative and much better at measuring interaction depth.
    You and me both. This innocence has a wonderful quality in a way, but it feels like it's opening up an area of vulnerability and so you learn to become guarded. Maybe that is some of what is behind the response of Fi to Fe. When you obtain evidence to the contrary, it can feel like a betrayal, so after enough experiences you begin to protect yourself.

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    reborn Array PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    For me, I wouldn't call it bullshitting so much as dissonance ... to feel something but witness behaviour that doesn't seem to align. Oh, I know most people are good, and they don't mean to come across negatively. It was hard aligning the why, and these threads help with that. Still ...

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander
    I think we have an unrealistic expectation in this. We are overlaying our value structure on others. We are not accepting others for who they are. I do think though that if you look at the interaction between Fi and Fe that this might be a positive thing. The person who prefers Fi gets the Fe user to open up and say more of what they think or feel. The Fe user helps the Fi user to consider the practical interpersonal outcomes of their actions. Anyway, that's my theory.
    Yes, it's unrealistic. That's what makes it idealistic. But I don't see it as not accepting others; on the contrary, it's extremely accepting. I don't expect other people to be like me at all, or share my values, or even be interested to hear what I have to say. All I hope for is someone that cares enough to try, to reach out. It is simply wonderful when that area opens up between two people.

    Ironically, it's why I so vastly manage my own inner space, what I share or emote, why I shut people out who I sense are trying to read me (or who might be able to unless deemed trustworthy), why I am tentative to assign motivations, to make declarations ... a whole raft of things. I am too tired atm to express my ideas more clearly. Apologies.

    And too, I like to have the control here ... this is my locus, my sphere of influence. If I can't Fe or Te as well as a native speaker, I need to embrace what I do have and use that to the utmost of ability to help me grow. I am so, so weary of trying to un-Fi myself.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Awhile back I became much more careful IRL of assigning sincerity vs insincerity...once I understood i was really seeing Fi vs Fe. I realized I had been passing a value judgement on people based upon my own ability to detect Fi in them-I avoided "bullshitters" aka people who used a lot of Fe...OnceI understood they were not "phony" but just different in expression, I became very wary of what my Fi told me about trusting them. I still do not trust them with Fi, but I recognize they are not unstrustable with respect to Te. (perhaps this is what you see? just tossing it out there in that case...)
    I think I can see where you are coming but I wanted to make a distinction between phony/bullshitters and Fe. Fe can be about diplomacy but there are TRULY phony people in the world regardless of Fe or Fi My Fe is usually careful about trusting people. If someone seems to be too good to be true (with extreme charisma and social skills)or if the actions don't align with their words, then I wait to see if they are genuine. I have met people who I have had a really bad feeling about from the get go and my first impressions are usually right. That sounds so judgmental but typically when I give these people a chance, I get burned almost every time.

  10. #320
    Administrator Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Yes, it's unrealistic. That's what makes it idealistic. But I don't see it as not accepting others; on the contrary, it's extremely accepting. I don't expect other people to be like me at all, or share my values, or even be interested to hear what I have to say. All I hope for is someone that cares enough to try, to reach out. It is simply wonderful when that area opens up between two people.
    Inside, we may be accepting but I think it might come across to Fe users as they are being judged by not meeting this ideal. The ideal is considered as superior. In other words, the practical orientation doesn't feel accepted as "good enough." Then Fe considers Fi as being out of touch with reality. I don't know. Maybe I'm out of my league here .....

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