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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #301
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I don't think it does to Fe users. I really don't identify my emotions as an integral part of my identity. It's more like symptoms or information that may direct me to look at factors I may not otherwise give as much weight to.
    Do you think that's the case even with Fe doms?

  2. #302
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i suspect Ps naturally leave space for randomness and chaos; it’s assumed in our thoughts and behavior. if you don't account for that then it'll throw off the calculations.
    Dunno, randomness and chaos are an interpretation only, rarely are such artifacts randomness and chaotic in nature. Its just the precept based upon the analysis a misinterpretation of the infrastructure. Its like closing your eyes and randomly making dots on a piece of paper, you think its random and chaotic. But you open your eyes and find there to be a pattern. I would hazard a guess each type's random dot experience would be an interesting deviation. Say if I just put dots to paper, thousands of dots there would definitely be some kind of cohesion.

    And if you contract the time frame of individuals life spans in comprehensible ways that plot the emotional scales of thoughts and feels and their associated randomness and chaos to the reactions that are occurring patterns would be emergent. It would be interesting.

    Just because it is outside the reference range of understanding isn't a qualifier to judge or perceive the circumstance as random, chaotic, irrational, illogical etc, its a 'too hard' lets deplete the variable to reinterpret to something that is comprehensible and tangible.

  3. #303
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    On that note I'm on a tangent spurred on by something earlier. Whether this has any relevance.

    INFJ's feel their way through their relationships and social building skills. And this comes from a source of wanting to be aware of the outcome of how society, people function. In doing so create an illusion that the values are definitive instruments in predictable behaviour that their cognition becomes in tune with. The very same sense of wanting to be social is the very same sense that closes from assigned discrepancies classified as alert modalities. And just like INTJ's there are contingencies that INFJ's have. Unlike INTJ securities and valued hierarchies INFJ social values and internal hierarchies are interlaced throughout their thinking. Why INFJ forums is such an emotionally charged artifact and INTJ forums is such an emotionally cold artifact. INFJ value for social etiquette borders on a moral and ethical premise in their value system. I've seen it displayed a lot, its a judgment placed upon what I call the proclivity of attitude in regards to experiencing their kind of emotional attachments and disassociations through precognitive intuition. Applying social contingencies that reshape their awareness to fit their value system over their ideals.

    In each instance its like an internal limit breaker to experiencing. By focusing on an event horizon that is beyond the scope of approximation there is an internal conflict going on. And that is according to the impressions that are created around the social orbit, like a road with dents, the orbit accumulates debris. For INTJ's rather than a social orbit we'll call it a strategic orbit of contingencies and for INFJ's we'll call it a subtle orbit of resonance. Qualifiers and markers that pertain to the emotional state of valuation in accordance with the internal rules and regulations as influenced by the flavours of the people they look up to into their own precept of approximation.

    Now with INTJ's we can see that the strategic orbit of contingencies is meant to create plans for security on a grand scale that is seen as visionary. And it is in a way a formula to create a lasting valuation of their worth as a legacy for what their achievements and predictive patterning of their logical conclusions draw upon in their interpretation of things to come. Often for this reason their lack of malleable acceptance of adding other peoples pieces of their orbit around their linear one is because they are of the belief, and a primarily emotional belief not entirely logical, that their vision is secure, unshakable, provable, implementable and incomparable. Which it is in the time frame of that moment in time that the projection has occurred. The funny thing with that is in that moment the very human concept of time changes and then the other hundred contingencies that happen to counteract that dimensional reality are strange. When its multidimensional, and just like thousands, millions of thoughts that happen a day time is an illusion. The ego mind learns certain concrete values and uses them accordingly as the means to shape the reality of the outcomes that are projected into the future. And the predictive power applies from an emotional center because thoughts happen to form from emotions, without emotions the association to think of the logical vision in question would be unthinkable. Its like putting acid with fruit, it'll melt. And hence cold and calculating, and yet completely removed from the now and totally blinded by the many possibilities that their thinking limits them from. INTJ's think their contingencies and back up plans are for their security and the source comes from their insecurity in wanting to control their future. Without understanding that the human condition is created to exist in the now. And then INTJ blind spots are in the now and believe in their futures all the while creating some kind of insecurity in an unobtainable perfection. Like a mole tunneling lots of exit strategies only to find the whole infrastructure can still collapse, hence tunnel vision. Ah I blabeb I lost the point of that. I just felt like writing it since I'm in the mood to.

    Now the INFJ subtle orb of resonance is interesting. While this would be likened to chess pieces I'm unsure about that, I would actually attribute the term more to NT variences. But that's for another time. I call it resonance because its actually tuning into a wavelength along their valuation of the mosaic, like a meandering and weaving tapestry, that correlates to their infrastructure of accumulated wisdom through the orbital waves that transpire. Much like through the looking glass in Alice and Wonderland is strangely what pops into my mind.

    And this is a kind of diffraction in a subtle way in determining the outcome of positive and negative intonation before it happens. Like a light bulb moment an inventive ENTP might have, an INFJ has a purple bulb moment like an internal dialogue that's placed on a scale of importance according to their definition of external energies and associations. Based on the feeling of that impression, that sense of awareness of reading about the markers and orbital signature that is left behind. Like a smell, except its like a vibration that resonates with the internal landscape of how your precepts listen to the validated systems of acceptable and unacceptable instruction. And in doing so the complexity of the analysis becomes such that you can reshape your intuition in seeing into another more clearly of their motives and understand the sincerity drives and motives faster and sooner. However there is the debris around the orbit and with that foresight there is also a muddied sense of disenfranchisement and disconnect depending on the variance of experience and attributes that the human condition affords.

    Who knows, more speculation.

    Dare I say I'm yet to meet any INFJ's in person so I'm speculating. Does any of this makes sense to INTJ's and INFJ's? Dunno I just wrote it as it comes.

  4. #304
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Their actions would be appreciated, nonetheless. Hopefully what they choose to do isn't so drastic that they've somehow encroached on you.
    Hmmm, kind things are never an issue to be honest. Perhaps unexpected but as tildy said-it's the thought that counts. The negative side will be their dissapointment when I do not return the kind gesture-but this is a very well explored issue on many threads though.

    On the dark side -the interrpretation of my expression of emotion as a request for their action actually backfires in two ways:

    1) They seem to feel manipulated or resentful at being "requested" to act in a certain manner-which I never actually desired or requested.

    2) They seem to assume my expression of emotion is a request for them to modify how they have judged a topic-which is not what I desire.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    If it is, the Fe user will react in a way that seems very harsh and unpredictable to the Fi user. The issue is really that the Fe user thinks that the Fi user 1) Did not get the message for some reason - obliviousness? choosing to ignore? Fe user not being clear enough? 2) Is purposely being obtuse and is trying to upset them. This means that the Fe user will keep stating their case in stronger and stronger terms in such a way that the Fi user feels personally judged and rejected when they don't see what it was that they even did in the first place.

    Again though-how do I explain to an Fe user that I would like to agree to disagree? That I have heard their view on a topic and given we see the world differently, it is an area in which will always disagree?

    (I also realized-when in discussions with Fe users, I keep waiting for presentations of logical fallcies-Ti style info or objective Te data...thus I never modify my opinion, not because I am close minded at all, but because I havent seen data that contridicts my understanding of the issue. The information provided is Fe value judgments-which I improperly interpret as individual Fi emotive responses, which I can affirm but disregard intellectually as insufficient data sources that cant over rule what I have observed)

  5. #305
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    synapse i read your posts and I adore them-They are so Fi driven that I often have to spend time pondering them though, so I dont reply, but I greatly value them. Your Fi is almost Ni-ish in it's search for universality and there are many pieces I find familiar, but I dont know how to expand upon them very well.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    YES:
    - The group, its associated dynamics, culture and how it functions.
    - Patterns of behaviors of individuals and groups
    - Society more broadly
    - The dynamics of how people relate to one another
    - Understanding individual's behaviors, motivations, desires and beliefs

    NO:
    -and motivations that others seem have in the group.
    - Understanding the nature of the relationship between you and this other person - with all of its nuances
    - Assessing consistency of behavior of individuals and behavior with social protocols
    - How decisions, actions, or expressed opinions are going to be reacted to, countered or felt by others and weighing benefits and costs of the course of action
    - Using all angles of how the group works, connects, gets along (or doesn’t) and all of their views and then deciding what course of action is most amenable to the intended goal while accommodating the most people
    - Given all of the above factors - how much of yourself do you invest in relating to them; also, how do you customize your interaction for the situation
    I enjoy studying the above under "YES" in a context independent manner given I don’t use Ni but Si. I establish generalized rules which can be used to predict, but not absolutely define. Guidelines, tendencies, proclivities. Once the general TeSi rules are built, you lay them back on top of individuals, then fine tune with Fi knowledge of that person, sort of using Ne to blur over the fuzzy areas. It could be considered an extension of Fidelia's commentary on Fi below:

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Both parties do not realize that the purposes or goals of Fe users and Fi users are completely different. They may use some of the same tools, but for very different ends. It's kind of like how one person may use a rock as part of a stone wall they are building, while another may use it as a stand in for a hammer. Both are valid uses for rocks, but if an onlooker were to judge the effectiveness of the person using the rock to hammer with by how well their wall was coming along, they'd think there was something wrong with the person. Conversely, if the hammer user were looking at the rock wall builder by how effectively they wielded the rock as a makeshift tool, they would judge that they were doing quite poorly.

  6. #306
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    Now with INTJ's we can see that the strategic orbit of contingencies is meant to create plans for security on a grand scale that is seen as visionary. And it is in a way a formula to create a lasting valuation of their worth as a legacy for what their achievements and predictive patterning of their logical conclusions draw upon in their interpretation of things to come. Often for this reason their lack of malleable acceptance of adding other peoples pieces of their orbit around their linear one is because they are of the belief, and a primarily emotional belief not entirely logical, that their vision is secure, unshakable, provable, implementable and incomparable. Which it is in the time frame of that moment in time that the projection has occurred. The funny thing with that is in that moment the very human concept of time changes and then the other hundred contingencies that happen to counteract that dimensional reality are strange. When its multidimensional, and just like thousands, millions of thoughts that happen a day time is an illusion. The ego mind learns certain concrete values and uses them accordingly as the means to shape the reality of the outcomes that are projected into the future. And the predictive power applies from an emotional center because thoughts happen to form from emotions, without emotions the association to think of the logical vision in question would be unthinkable. Its like putting acid with fruit, it'll melt. And hence cold and calculating, and yet completely removed from the now and totally blinded by the many possibilities that their thinking limits them from. INTJ's think their contingencies and back up plans are for their security and the source comes from their insecurity in wanting to control their future. Without understanding that the human condition is created to exist in the now. And then INTJ blind spots are in the now and believe in their futures all the while creating some kind of insecurity in an unobtainable perfection. Like a mole tunneling lots of exit strategies only to find the whole infrastructure can still collapse, hence tunnel vision. Ah I blabeb I lost the point of that. I just felt like writing it since I'm in the mood to.
    Ah, sweet inferior function.


    But the INJs don't have a judgment e as our primary concern. Security doesn't reside (wholly) in recognising order out of disorder. That, despite what the INFJs have been saying about the comfort of knowing where everyone else stands, is still the EJs. No, to have at the limits of the INJ vision we need an ESP to assert for us what intuition really is compared to the true flow of reality going on around us even now.

    But still... "unobtainable perfection"...

    I don't see perfect images. If actually called upon to decide something I'll see utilitarian steps.

    Steps toward... whatever was required. The vision itself resides in the background. Despite being the dominant concern, it's rendered secondary when one is called upon to speak.

    If there is some INJ version of the unobtainable perfection, it's less a perfection and more a simple.... [placeholder for a word]. If the vision is ever completely articulated, it ceases to be "the"vision. It enters the past at that point and counts as grist for the new vision. Perhaps into that placeholder above should go the word "revolution", that word just in the sense of constant movement, but not revolving for that would suggest cycles, which isn't quite what's wanted here. "Movement", perhaps.

    Heh. Intuition as unobtainable movement. All possible movements and the point where they all overlap in no movement.





    Pffft.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  7. #307
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Hmmm, kind things are never an issue to be honest. Perhaps unexpected but as tildy said-it's the thought that counts. The negative side will be their dissapointment when I do not return the kind gesture-but this is a very well explored issue on many threads though.

    On the dark side -the interrpretation of my expression of emotion as a request for their action actually backfires in two ways:

    1) They seem to feel manipulated or resentful at being "requested" to act in a certain manner-which I never actually desired or requested.

    2) They seem to assume my expression of emotion is a request for them to modify how they have judged a topic-which is not what I desire.
    I know what you mean here. I don't like that either.

  8. #308
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    SK, would Fi users be comfortable prefacing their comments as just "raving on about stuff"? I ask that because I think that it would help Fe users be a lto less defensive and prescriptive if they understood that you are expressing yourself, thinking aloud (much in the way I vent so that I can come to an effective solution to my problem), and that you have no particular aim you are trying to achieve by doing so other than that as an end in itself. This was totally new news to me a couple of weeks ago. Seriously!
    The thing is, we were convinced that we have been signposting this for you.

    To make things clear, here are ways Fi-users (again I can only really speak for doms/auxs) show they are just putting an idea out there or merely expressing a personal view they don't mean to impose on others (taken from a real thread):

    "I don't know if that's just me..."
    "There's something kind of..."
    "Its not that I don't..."
    "Maybe its that..."
    "The way I imagine..."
    "I was surprised by..."
    "That's not my personal perception..."
    "This feels like..."
    "Maybe its just me, but here's my personal take..."
    "I mean, this reads to me..."
    "I actually prefer..."
    "I would disagree that..."


    To us (admittedly these were mainly INFPs), that is a bunch of clear qualifiers for the preceeding and following statements. Its to tell others: its "just my view", "I maybe, sort of, possibly think this", or its "just a thought that came to me". We don't like to talk in absolutes or assume others feel the same as us or impose our views on others, so we want to remove the burden of objectivity from what is said. When you see statements like:

    "Its wrong to..."
    "People should be more..."
    "You shouldn't..."
    "It doesn't mean..."
    "They apparently don't ..."
    "Then it's obviously not..."
    "This means that..."


    Then they are being more prescriptive or claiming more universal understanding, and are displaying possible intentions regarding the situation. (note: I found it really hard to find these sorts of statements from XXFPs without qualifications. That just shows how much they are actually trying to avoid confrontational language or making broad, objective claims)
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Agreed on both- which underscores the discussion here that Fe isn't consistent across all of it's users. It's based on individual discernment, so it will differ in how it's expressed.

    I'd like to add, before someone comes in here and contends that Si isn't open, and their Je isn't malleable - that's false. I don't want that to take over the thread- we can discuss if necessary.
    I do think ISxJs can be more "malleable" than ESxJs. It makes me think of my ISTJ grandfather who would really crack down and be judgey on particular issues, but for the most part was consistently much easier on children and overall forgiving of people he loved than his ESxJ wife, who appeared to need to be in constant control and was more nit-picky. Same for my ESFJ ex, needing constant control over the situation or even other people, except for the moments when he was being purely warm and radiant and loving. I've known several ISFJ women who seemed quite accepting and accomodating of people in general as long as they didn't cause any visible external disruption.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I do think ISxJs can be more "malleable" than ESxJs. It makes me think of my ISTJ grandfather who would really crack down and be judgey on particular issues, but for the most part was consistently much easier on children and overall forgiving of people he loved than his ESxJ wife, who appeared to need to be in constant control and was more nit-picky. Same for my ESFJ ex, needing constant control over the situation or even other people, except for the moments when he was being purely warm and radiant and loving. I've known several ISFJ women who seemed quite accepting and accomodating of people in general as long as they didn't cause any visible external disruption.
    My ISTJ grandpa is the same exact way. Certain issues he will fight to the death for and become extremely hard headed, everything else he is really malleable and fun to joke around with and be around. Despite the fact that he is ISTJ and I play heavily with respect when it comes to people older then me for fun, he is very playful on that front with me as well because he knows I am playing.
    Im out, its been fun

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