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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #21
    insert random title here Array Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    It is something I was hoping would lead to discussion though - not just pure venting. The fact that a group's norms and values are a certain way does not mean those are right. That is a big part of what I'm saying.
    Ok, in that case I'll continue...
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    It's not better. It's different.
    I agree sooo what's the frustration? Is the point that Fe is saying that individual feelings are less important than the feelings of the majority, and this is frustrating? How does Fi reconcile meeting the needs of one individual with meeting the needs of all the individuals (with contradictory feelings), or does the latter just not happen?

    It comes from experience and observation. The fact that the judgment is often expressed in a subtle way to maintain harmony does not mean that it is not there. Strong Fe users are judging all of the time whether you know it or not.
    Interesting. It's true that if I say something, I believe it to be true or well, I wouldn't be saying it! But I would never mean to imply that my opinion on something is worth more than anyone else's opinion (if roughly equal experience/expertise in the area). That's why all the hemming and hawing and imo's. Do Fi users say things they don't believe are true? That doesn't make sense to me. I must be misunderstanding you.

    Is it maybe that....Fe sees it as many opinions, with a "best" answer somewhere (note: not necessarily its own answer), while Fi sees it as many opinions, with no "best" answers anywhere?

    I don't see it as much different but I'm sure some artful application of Ti would find find flaws in the nuances of the wording. It's close enough in my opinion.
    I'm more interested in the second half - why is something automatically suspect because people agree with it? Is there a sense that it's inauthentic and has been formulated specifically to please people, rather than stating the truth? Given a random statement by an Fe user that 75% of people agree with: If a Fi user agrees with that opinion, is it because it's popular? If a Fe user agrees with it, is it because it's popular? Does people agreeing with it alter the accuracy of the statement, and if so, why?

    Fe users generally value harmony and group values. Fe is focused on the object (the feelings of others). Fi users are focused on what they personally feel is important or to the extent something is good or bad. It is their personal appraisal based on their own beliefs, sense of integrity, right and wrong, etc. It is subjective - it comes from within vs. influence of the object. Therefore, by definition, it is less likely to be susceptible to group think/feelings.
    Your logic is sound, so I'm not sure why I'm still feeling myself disagree. Nobody really likes to think they would participate in mindless conformity, even though the vast majority of people actually do so in studies (surely not all Fe if we assume the proportions are roughly 50:50 - what they are I have no idea). Even if an Fi user firmly believes something, it doesn't mean they'll speak up about it. Even if an Fe user considers the feelings of the group, it doesn't mean they won't speak up about their objections in a polite way. So, I'm not sure I've seen evidence in my experience that the theory here actually pans out in real life.

    Just trying to increase my limited understanding here. Not trying to defend Fe or attack Fi or anything like that.
    -end of thread-

  2. #22
    Moving to the BVI Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Ok, in that case I'll continue...

    I agree sooo what's the frustration? Is the point that Fe is saying that individual feelings are less important than the feelings of the majority, and this is frustrating? How does Fi reconcile meeting the needs of one individual with meeting the needs of all the individuals (with contradictory feelings), or does the latter just not happen?
    Fi is not necessarily about meeting the needs of one individual or any group of individuals. It is about one person's beliefs. It is a useful compliment to Fe but can also be drowned out.

    "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one." Charles McKay from Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraor...ness_of_Crowds

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Interesting. It's true that if I say something, I believe it to be true or well, I wouldn't be saying it! But I would never mean to imply that my opinion on something is worth more than anyone else's opinion (if roughly equal experience/expertise in the area). That's why all the hemming and hawing and imo's. Do Fi users say things they don't believe are true? That doesn't make sense to me. I must be misunderstanding you.

    Is it maybe that....Fe sees it as many opinions, with a "best" answer somewhere (note: not necessarily its own answer), while Fi sees it as many opinions, with no "best" answers anywhere?
    Fi users don't say things they believe are not true and I'm not sure where you get that. I believe that Fe sees a collective set of values and feelings from those it has exposure to and it expresses a judgement which represents the collective value that leads towards harmony - or something like that. It is hesitant to directly express these judgments because it leads to confrontation which opposes the very harmony it seeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I'm more interested in the second half - why is something automatically suspect because people agree with it? Is there a sense that it's inauthentic and has been formulated specifically to please people, rather than stating the truth? Given a random statement by an Fe user that 75% of people agree with: If a Fi user agrees with that opinion, is it because it's popular? If a Fe user agrees with it, is it because it's popular? Does people agreeing with it alter the accuracy of the statement, and if so, why?
    I don't think it is automatically suspect or inauthentic at all. It is simply a form of judgment that has flaws which must be recognized.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Your logic is sound, so I'm not sure why I'm still feeling myself disagree. Nobody really likes to think they would participate in mindless conformity, even though the vast majority of people actually do so in studies (surely not all Fe if we assume the proportions are roughly 50:50 - what they are I have no idea). Even if an Fi user firmly believes something, it doesn't mean they'll speak up about it. Even if an Fe user considers the feelings of the group, it doesn't mean they won't speak up about their objections in a polite way. So, I'm not sure I've seen evidence in my experience that the theory here actually pans out in real life.

    Just trying to increase my limited understanding here. Not trying to defend Fe or attack Fi or anything like that.
    I don't think it is "mindless conformity" in any way. When coupled with Si or Ni, the result is a highly sophisticated manner or process of arriving at conclusions. However, as one considers that Te judgment is "brutal" at times, I believe Fe can in it's own way be similarly "brutal," as a form of judgment.

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  3. #23
    insert random title here Array Randomnity's Avatar
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    Fi users don't say things they believe are not true and I'm not sure where you get that. I believe that Fe sees a collective set of values and feelings from those it has exposure to and it expresses a judgement which represents the collective value that leads towards harmony - or something like that. It is hesitant to directly express these judgments because it leads to confrontation which opposes the very harmony it seeks.
    To elaborate on this a bit more, you originally were commenting about Fe's "arrogance that its perspective is right", and I was struggling to understand this statement. I guess I'm wondering what Fi is like, if it isn't like that, because I had thought everyone had that "arrogance"! Are you saying that Fi is less certain that it's right, because it's more individualistic? I'm just unsure what the perception of arrogance is tied to. Or are you saying it comes off as arrogant some other way that's unconnected to its message?

    I don't think it is automatically suspect or inauthentic at all. It is simply a form of judgment that has flaws which must be recognized.
    Just to return to your original statement which I've probably misunderstood:
    Also, there is the particular challenge that when the Fe perspective is voiced, others quickly pile on, because of course it reflects a popular view - even if that perspective is wrong.
    You seemed to be implying here that people (not sure if everyone or just Fe-people) are agreeing just to be agreeable, or perhaps because of the Fe-polite way it was said, or because they think everyone else agrees...even if they would ordinarily disagree with that perspective. Am I understanding somewhat correctly or way off-base here?
    -end of thread-

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    Based on the theoretical definitions it would be impossible to use only Fi or Fe. I realize that is well-known - that every person uses every function to greater or lesser degrees, but how consistent are preferences? I wonder this especially when they fill such different roles. Everyone has to deal with groups and with personal beliefs, etc. Perhaps it has more to do with how a person integrates the inner and outer subjective realms, rather than which always dominates in its theoretical sense.

    My point is questioning the dichotomy created by Fi vs. Fe. I can't see them applied in an isolated manner, although people often identify with one or the other as defining their subjective realm of thought. People say "I am a Fe-user" or "I am a Fi-user". I suppose I read it as "interpersonal" and "intrapersonal" intelligences which are not by nature opposing, but two aspects of how a person interacts with the world. Does one have to be a preference or does it change depending on context?

    Edit: I guess the question is, if they are not applied in an isolated way, but are more the result of how the two aspects integrate within a person, is it possible to say "Fe does this", and "Fi does this". Or is Fe completely reinterpreted based on how it interacts with a person's Fi, and vice versa?
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  5. #25
    Moving to the BVI Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    To elaborate on this a bit more, you originally were commenting about Fe's "arrogance that its perspective is right", and I was struggling to understand this statement. I guess I'm wondering what Fi is like, if it isn't like that, because I had thought everyone had that "arrogance"! Are you saying that Fi is less certain that it's right, because it's more individualistic? I'm just unsure what the perception of arrogance is tied to. Or are you saying it comes off as arrogant some other way that's unconnected to its message?
    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    You seemed to be implying here that people (not sure if everyone or just Fe-people) are agreeing just to be agreeable, or perhaps because of the Fe-polite way it was said, or because they think everyone else agrees...even if they would ordinarily disagree with that perspective. Am I understanding somewhat correctly or way off-base here?
    I must really not be communicating very well here. I'm a bit stuck on your second comment as to how to better articulate myself.

    On the first point - fair point on the arrogance thing. I suppose either an Fe or Fi user could equally think they are right. The thing is that Fe wins over Fi in the short term under almost any scenario unless the Fi user is the one in power. Maybe that is what is frustrating because it does not mean that it is right.

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  6. #26
    4x9 Array cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I must really not be communicating very well here. I'm a bit stuck on your second comment as to how to better articulate myself.

    On the first point - fair point on the arrogance thing. I suppose either an Fe or Fi user could equally think they are right. The thing is that Fe wins over Fi in the short term under almost any scenario unless the Fi user is the one in power. Maybe that is what is frustrating because it does not mean that it is right.
    An Fi user in power may not be 'right' either, though, but it ends up being kind of a moot point because 'rightness' is in the eye of the beholder/ can be subjective in and of itself, and no one's ever going to agree on what is 'right' and what isn't.

    Anyway, as far as Fe winning in almost any scenario, is that due to the fact that Fe will tend to put weight on the majority, because doing so appeases the greatest number of people? I think this is where we enter tricky ground, only because like I just said, we could argue that pretty much any persons' viewpoint is in fact just a viewpoint, and you can't really argue 'rightness' when it comes to most things. So let's say in almost any scenario, the process would be to instead appease the minority and reject the viewpoints' of everyone in the majority. It would then be rather the same thing, it's just that now the minority would be appeased and the majority would be protesting. Someone is always going to get the short end of the stick; I suppose the Fe's 'tactic' is simply to try to account for the most number of people, because it's a given that it's an impossibility to please everyone.

    In a sense... yes... the 'majority' will tend to view the minorities views as selfish/insert negative label. I mean I've been in that position too, with my family. Just in simple, everyday situations where three of them want to do one thing and I don't particularly want to and would prefer the other thing. I end up being labeled selfish because my true desires end up not lining up with the desires of everyone else, even though on the same token you could spin it around and say they're being just as selfish, because they're prioritizing their views over mine. Neither is good or bad, right or wrong, it's just that, yes, in the end whatever way ends up fulfilling the needs of the greatest number of people (greatest number of individual opinions) will tend to 'win'.
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    An additional thought - Someone who prefers Fi, I believe, can face continued points of frustration throughout their lives in those situations where what they believe is not in alignment with the collective values of the majority. As one example, I have seen so many situations throughout my life - where an individual is unpopular, ganged up on, not viewed as "a fit', etc. Sometimes, the judgements that are imposed feel unfair though they no doubt do reflect the values and feelings of a majority or a larger group. In a situation where someone is not treated fairly, I can become motivated to protect this person. It is the principle that is important - not so much about what other people think or feel. I think an Fe user looks at the situation very differently. It's bottom line oriented and understands the reality of what others feel or value. That is how in some sense how it is like Te because Te is very much about what is practical and what works.

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    insert random title here Array Randomnity's Avatar
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    Yes, exactly what cascade said. Definitely Fe will tend to be considering the effects of its proposal on the majority, if not their actual opinions of it (which may be different). So it's more likely to be popular (than a proposal benefiting a minority) because its goal will usually be to benefit the most people. If "winning" is by popularity, it makes sense that Fe will "win" more often. I'm honestly having trouble seeing the downside of this, barring of course human rights violations to the minority. Does it not make more sense for everyone (or realistically, most people) to be happy, rather than just one person? Assuming there does have to be a "winner", that is - ideally we would all just get along in peace, I suppose.

    So highlander, when you said others would "pile on [to an Fe viewpoint rather than an Fi view], because...it expresses a popular view", why do you think others are piling on?
    -end of thread-

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    Quote Originally Posted by Annwn View Post
    Based on the theoretical definitions it would be impossible to use only Fi or Fe. I realize that is well-known - that every person uses every function to greater or lesser degrees, but how consistent are preferences? I wonder this especially when they fill such different roles. Everyone has to deal with groups and with personal beliefs, etc. Perhaps it has more to do with how a person integrates the inner and outer subjective realms, rather than which always dominates in its theoretical sense.

    My point is questioning the dichotomy created by Fi vs. Fe. I can't see them applied in an isolated manner, although people often identify with one or the other as defining their subjective realm of thought. People say "I am a Fe-user" or "I am a Fi-user". I suppose I read it as "interpersonal" and "intrapersonal" intelligences which are not by nature opposing, but two aspects of how a person interacts with the world. Does one have to be a preference or does it change depending on context?

    Edit: I guess the question is, if they are not applied in an isolated way, but are more the result of how the two aspects integrate within a person, is it possible to say "Fe does this", and "Fi does this". Or is Fe completely reinterpreted based on how it interacts with a person's Fi, and vice versa?
    It seems there is a lot of confusion on the overlap between the two functions. Can you elaborate more on why it is impossible to use them in isolation from one another? I actually view them as quite different but am not an Fe or Fi dom or aux.

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    Paragon Gone Wrong Array OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    To elaborate on this a bit more, you originally were commenting about Fe's "arrogance that its perspective is right", and I was struggling to understand this statement. I guess I'm wondering what Fi is like, if it isn't like that, because I had thought everyone had that "arrogance"! Are you saying that Fi is less certain that it's right, because it's more individualistic? I'm just unsure what the perception of arrogance is tied to. Or are you saying it comes off as arrogant some other way that's unconnected to its message?
    Of course everyone can be arrogant. If we're talking patterns, then I'd say yes, Fi is less arrogant in this regard exactly because there is an acute awareness that their Feeling is individual, which Fe sometimes lacks. Fe seems to be sure of its rightness, and that's often because, as mentioned, it has the benefit of consensus. It casts a wide net to include as many as possible, but in the process can also alienate some. Fe seeks to affect others, which Fi usually does not. A Fi type affecting its environment or other people is more the effect of Pe, which is IFPs seem to take a casual approach & are not inclined to create much structure when in a leadership role.

    A Fi type will almost try to validate all individual feelings, even if they contradict each other; it's very much a "live and let live" attitude. Only occasionally will Fi really assert rightness, and then it's over something felt to be representative of a larger, almost universal issue, something beyond themselves, and it's still often asserted indirectly through personal example or resistance to the percieved violation, rather than pro-actively getting others to act for/against this "cause". Fe seeks to be more directly influential more often, which is partly why it seems to assume it is right, and will assert so more confidently.

    When Fi is arrogant, then you'll find it more "elitist". Instead of trying to impose its standards on others, it tries to set its standards apart as superior, and excludes people who don't meet their standard.

    And as usual, I speak of rather pure types, as individuals have their P function for balance and it can greatly influence their F function.
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