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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #281
    Meat Tornado Array DiscoBiscuit's Avatar
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    I would call that just being in control of your emotions.

    Like you said, I wouldn't call it such.

    I would call what you are talking about reading people and being aware of social niceties.
    Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.
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  2. #282
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Interesting.

    Does it feel like Fi-users are often being inconsiderately emotionally imposing and/or being overly critical to you, even when it isn't in the form of an emotional outburst?
    Sometimes yes. That's when Fe gets bossy and prescriptive and Fi users either arch their backs and hiss or else feel attacked. Sometimes it just seems like they feel their needs are the most important and they either bring up a bunch of little things or they don't give enough information that I can address the problem before it spins out of control. Sometimes it is said publicly which seems needlessly conflict inducing or unproductive or makes certain people needlessly look bad when change or addressing a problem could be addressed much more effectively privately.

    It's only now that I've realized that the purposes for communicating these things are different that I am more able to step back and see it more for what it is. I feel less responsible for trying to change everything around with myself and the rest of the group to accommodate the "unhappy" member voicing their criticisms or feelings.

  3. #283
    Senior Member Array IndyGhost's Avatar
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    i don't think manipulate carries negative connotations. people have manipulated for the purposes of evil, but by definition...

    Definition of MANIPULATE
    transitive verb
    1
    : to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
    2
    a : to manage or utilize skillfully b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
    3
    : to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose : doctor
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  4. #284
    Senior Member Array Synapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I don't think it does to Fe users. I really don't identify my emotions as an integral part of my identity. It's more like symptoms or information that may direct me to look at factors I may not otherwise give as much weight to.
    Its probably an introverted issue more, a reservation to state aspects of emotions, rather than being a negotiator or just being as diplomatic as the situation necessitates?

  5. #285
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    Oh, also my ex and I used to talk about "twinkling" at people, "projecting sex," etc. all of those things are emotional expression with intent of eliciting a certain reaction.

  6. #286
    Senior Member Array Synapse's Avatar
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    Wow this thread has some kind of pace!

  7. #287
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Oh, also my ex and I used to talk about "twinkling" at people, "projecting sex," etc. all of those things are emotional expression with intent of eliciting a certain reaction.
    Okay, said in those terms, I understand what you are talking about Marm, and yes I do that. For example, when teaching I may use a serious expression when talking about something with a kid so that they understand this is different than usual, even though I do not feel upset or emotionally invested. Again, it's because I want to get my end goal achieved, not because I care so much about my expression reflecting an important part of who I am or what is inside of me.

    I understand what you mean about twinkling at certain people etc.

    @ IAJ I kind of took the word to mean the definition of 2b or 3. Didn't realize others didn't. Whoops! Oh yeah, and I know we're on the same page. No worries there!

    @ Synapse - can you expand on that a bit? EDIT: reread and agree.

  8. #288
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    I'd like to say that I've noticed my ENFJ mother and also my friend Protean both tend to be more outspoken than me, even though we tend to assess situations similarly and have the same kind of emotional reaction. I tend to underexpress and my mother tends to overexpress in the initial reaction moment, so I'm not sure exactly how it looks from their point of view. I should qualify that my comments are highly tinged by INFJ ness Fe and I'm not certain how universal that is to other Fe flavours.

  9. #289
    Away with the fairies Array Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    i think a lot of Fe users are misconscruing what others mean when they say "manipulative." manipulate in the Fe sense isn't necessarily a negative thing... but it's along the same lines of trying to reach a certain outcome.

    earlier, you wrote:
    No matter how you put it, it's a manipulative behavior. but it doesn't mean it has to always be deemed as negative.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Manipulative for me always carries negative connotations and I just have assumed it does for all people. When you describe a person as being manipulative, it is not assumed to be a good thing. It implies deceitful craftiness and using a person's weaknesses against them. Maybe it doesn't mean that to everyone?
    I think the point is that the definition of Fe behaviour is different depending on whether your are an Fe-user or Fi-user. Fi-users have quite a broad and encompassing definition of 'manipulation', whereas Fe users may prefer to call what Fi-users accuse them of, something along the lines of 'social finesse'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    ^ Southern, couldn't a simple outcome be venting/catharsis? To me, outcomes aren't necessarily convoluted and complicated.
    Hmmm.

    I don't mean to say that Fi-users never have an intention behind their actions. I tell jokes to make people laugh and show sympathy in order to comfort others but usually the intention is rather explicit. We are more open and outright in expressing intentions, where Fe-users are more indirect or implicit in their methods. When I have intentions, I rarely wish to conceal them (and in fact, struggle to do so, which is often the problem) but to me an integral part of Fe style interaction is that others not consciously recognise the process they are using to achieve their goal. In other words, it is important that others not know that you are seeking a specific result because it would undermine the process itself. It would be like saying "I'm trying to cheer you up" while engaging in a series of actions that would (hopefully) result in cheering that person up - it breaks the spell, so to speak. And I guess the fact that it seems rather like an attempt to cast a spell, that it appears secretive and calculated, is what causes Fi-users to react so negatively to it.

    The thing about Fi-doms in particular is we can conceal our feelings but we struggle to conceal intentions. We can't skillfully illicit a desired response from others - we are either misunderstood or we just make complete fools of ourselves. I think this is at the heart of why we often suck at social interaction.

    Sorry, I'm having trouble effectively explaining this...
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

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  10. #290
    Senior Member Array IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I think the point is that the definition of Fe behaviour is different depending on whether your are an Fe-user or Fi-user. Fi-users have quite a broad and encompassing definition of 'manipulation', whereas Fe users may prefer to call what Fi-users accuse them of, something along the lines of 'social finesse'.

    Hmmm.

    I don't mean to say that Fi-users never have an intention behind their actions. I tell jokes to make people laugh and show sympathy in order to comfort others but usually the intention is rather explicit. We are more open and outright in expressing intentions, where Fe-users are more indirect or implicit in their methods. When I have intentions, I rarely wish to conceal them (and in fact, struggle to do so, which is often the problem) but to me an integral part of Fe style interaction is that others not consciously recognise the process they are using to achieve their goal. In other words, it is important that others not know that you are seeking a specific result because it would undermine the process itself. It would be like saying "I'm trying to cheer you up" while engaging in a series of actions that would (hopefully) result in cheering that person up - it breaks the spell, so to speak. And I guess the fact that it seems rather like an attempt to cast a spell, that it appears secretive and calculated, is what causes Fi-users to react so negatively to it.

    Sorry, I'm having trouble effectively explaining this...
    haha. much earlier on in this same thread i actually brought up the same--Fi often lacks this subtlety. and honestly, i applaud Fe for this ability. i've had many a Fe's save me by employing this tactic. like i said, it is a manipulative behavior, but not always a bad thing. it's an active molding of the situations at hand. i gave the example of my boss basically being a jerk to me, and an ISFJ who stepped in and using this gift of non-verbal, non-direct guardianship, basically protected me and stood up for me, as well as not offending our boss at the same time. were it the other way around, and my boss was being a jerk to the ISFJ and i felt it was necessary to do something about the situation... i would have been much more blunt that my boss was being a junk and more open about the fact that i was trying to stand up for the ISFJ.

    i've tried to learn this Fe tactic, but i'm just not as skilled at it. if i'm trying to cheer up a friend, i'll actually probably be very open about the fact that this is what i'm trying to do. i might make a joke like, "cheer up, emo kid." or perhaps try to help them see some positives in a seemingly negative situation. but it's also not as if Fe's don't take the personal and open road as well. but speaking of the group situation, where one person is obviously not on the same happy plane as everyone else, this is where the Fe excels.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

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