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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #271
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Yes! And I think the reason it is seen as disengenuous is that Fi is applying the same purpose for expressing emotions to Fe users as they would use and then feeling that they are going about it in completely the wrong way! Similarly, Fe assumes that Fi users express their emotions to get some kind of outcome, in the way that Fe users do and feel that Fi goes about it in a way that is not only inefficient, but often is even at cross purposes at what Fe judges their ultimate goal for outcome would be.

    Both parties do not realize that the purposes or goals of Fe users and Fi users are completely different. They may use some of the same equipment, but for very different ends.
    No wonder there is confusion. Fe users are spending all their time trying to work out what outcome I'm trying to achieve, oblivious to the fact that most of the time I'm just blathering on about the things that pop into my head, without even the vaguest intentions attached to them.

    Stop overthinking it Fe-ers! I'm not trying to play to complicated double-bluff/use reverse-psychology to deviously undermine your position or bully you about - just assume I'm just raving on about stuff!

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Does this have to do with the fact that a person who prefers Fi is extremely perceptive and sensitive to what it believes as "phoniness"? I head that somewhere once
    Yes, good point. This probably contributes to the whole misunderstanding.

    I suppose Fi-users believe that doing something for any reason other than for the value in of itself is inauthentic and wrong. Dare I say, Fe is more about 'the end' and Fi is more about 'the means'?
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

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  2. #272
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I would see it as manipulative if I faked emotion that wasn't there or actively made pretense about my emotion. In these cases though, it's more a matter of deciding how safe I feel and how much is prudent and expedient to uncover to another person. It's not adding anything or even denying something. If someone were to ask me about my true emotions and I really thought they wanted to know and it wouldn't cause them more problems to know, then I'd spill pretty easily.

    The issue comes in more when I'm imposing my emotional state on someone. It either reads as criticism to them of their own actions or a call to action, so I'd like to be really sure that I have understood the situation sufficiently and am not jumping the gun before I bother them or potentially offend/hurt them by making my feelings and thoughts known. I also want to understand what it is that I need from them or are requesting of them by sharing my problem. I want to fully understand what kind of reaction from them is likely so that I can weigh whether I am just adding to the obstacles to wade through or if I am clearing a path for a solution by airing what I have to say.
    i think a lot of Fe users are misconscruing what others mean when they say "manipulative." manipulate in the Fe sense isn't necessarily a negative thing... but it's along the same lines of trying to reach a certain outcome.

    earlier, you wrote:
    Instead, it is that I am expressing or not expressing a certain percentage of what I'm feeling because I deem that it will be more useful than not to the practical solution of us interacting optimally together over the long term.
    No matter how you put it, it's a manipulative behavior. but it doesn't mean it has to always be deemed as negative.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
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  3. #273
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Not disagreeing, just fleshing out what you said, from my perspective! I'm still not sure what emotions are for me. Partially, yes, a tool for understanding others, partly a tool for understanding myself (I find my emotions tend to sneak up on me and sometimes I don't realize how strongly I feel about something until a reaction comes out that I didn't expect). Maybe also as a pointer to indicate that I need to put more weight or focus on a certain aspect that I may otherwise trivialize or ignore. It generally compells me to check my reactions against several other trusted people's to see if I am way off base or if they confirm this as being a valid feeling or reaction. I don't really trust my emotions to remain consistent or stable and since they are usually a catalyst for me taking action, I need to ensure that I am not just reacting, but that my emotions just have served as an alert system. I usually need other people to reflect back what they see to me before I will trust it.

  4. #274
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    i think a lot of Fe users are misconscruing what others mean when they say "manipulative." manipulate in the Fe sense isn't necessarily a negative thing... but it's along the same lines of trying to reach a certain outcome.

    earlier, you wrote:
    No matter how you put it, it's a manipulative behavior. but it doesn't mean it has to always be deemed as negative.
    Manipulative for me always carries negative connotations and I just have assumed it does for all people. When you describe a person as being manipulative, it is not assumed to be a good thing. It implies deceitful craftiness and using a person's weaknesses against them. Maybe it doesn't mean that to everyone?

  5. #275
    Meat Tornado DiscoBiscuit's Avatar
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    Manipulation for good just means you've assumed that you know whats better for them than they do.

    There are a few cases where this is OK. Such as a child of yours or someone mentally incapable of knowing whats in their best interest.

    I know I don't want to be manipulated whether for good intentions or ill.
    Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.
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  6. #276
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    The issue comes in more when I'm imposing my emotional state on someone. It either reads as criticism to them of their own actions or a call to action, so I'd like to be really sure that I have understood the situation sufficiently and am not jumping the gun before I bother them or potentially offend/hurt them by making my feelings and thoughts known. I also want to understand what it is that I need from them or are requesting of them by sharing my problem. I want to fully understand what kind of reaction from them is likely so that I can weigh whether I am just adding to the obstacles to wade through or if I am clearing a path for a solution by airing what I have to say.
    Interesting.

    Does it feel like Fi-users are often being inconsiderately emotionally imposing and/or being overly critical to you, even when it isn't in the form of an emotional outburst?
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  7. #277
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Manipulative for me always carries negative connotations and I just have assumed it does for all people. When you describe a person as being manipulative, it is not assumed to be a good thing. It implies deceitful craftiness and using a person's weaknesses against them.
    Yes, I agree with that. That is what most people would perceive it to mean.

    And by the way, I know several ENFPs who are quite capable of engaging in manipulative behavior. But don't worry - it is all for your own good

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    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    No wonder there is confusion. Fe users are spending all their time trying to work out what outcome I'm trying to achieve, oblivious to the fact that most of the time I'm just blathering on about the things that pop into my head, without even the vaguest intentions attached to them.

    Stop overthinking it Fe-ers! I'm not trying to play to complicated double-bluff/use reverse-psychology to deviously undermine your position or bully you about - just assume I'm just raving on about stuff! ...


    Yes, good point. This probably contributes to the whole misunderstanding.

    I suppose Fi-users believe that doing something for any reason other than for the value in of itself is inauthentic and wrong. Dare I say, Fe is more about 'the end' and Fi is more about 'the means'?
    SK, would Fi users be comfortable prefacing their comments as just "raving on about stuff"? I ask that because I think that it would help Fe users be a lto less defensive and prescriptive if they understood that you are expressing yourself, thinking aloud (much in the way I vent so that I can come to an effective solution to my problem), and that you have no particular aim you are trying to achieve by doing so other than that as an end in itself. This was totally new news to me a couple of weeks ago. Seriously!

    Similarly, Fi users should understand that when Fe users bring something up, it is because they are implying that the action that needs to be taken cannot be accomplished by them alone or they are trying to bring to someone's attention a serious problem that they have. They don't like to rock the boat needlessly because they assume their comments could be taken as a criticm or as conflict inducing. So you'll only hear those comments under extreme provokation, after a lot of thought, or if the consequences have been weighed and the potential good to be accomplished outweighs the potential bad. A lot of thought has gone into them bringing something up and it should not be trivialized or dismissed as thinking aloud. If it is, the Fe user will react in a way that seems very harsh and unpredictable to the Fi user. The issue is really that the Fe user thinks that the Fi user 1) Did not get the message for some reason - obliviousness? choosing to ignore? Fe user not being clear enough? 2) Is purposely being obtuse and is trying to upset them. This means that the Fe user will keep stating their case in stronger and stronger terms in such a way that the Fi user feels personally judged and rejected when they don't see what it was that they even did in the first place.

    I very much agree with your last sentence.

  9. #279
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    No wonder there is confusion. Fe users are spending all their time trying to work out what outcome I'm trying to achieve, oblivious to the fact that most of the time I'm just blathering on about the things that pop into my head, without even the vaguest intentions attached to them.

    Stop overthinking it Fe-ers! I'm not trying to play to complicated double-bluff/use reverse-psychology to deviously undermine your position or bully you about - just assume I'm just raving on about stuff!


    Yes, good point. This probably contributes to the whole misunderstanding.

    I suppose Fi-users believe that doing something for any reason other than for the value in of itself is inauthentic and wrong. Dare I say, Fe is more about 'the end' and Fi is more about 'the means'?
    man, this particular thread is moving too fast for me. i keep missing certain posts.

    i, too, keep feeling as though some of the thoughts i'm bringing up are being misconstrued. i have nothing but love for Fe users! i promise, guys.
    and i'm able to... can i say, "feel" how Fe-users work... it's just hard for me to put into proper words... as working with feelings, it's often hard to associate the words i'm looking for.

    i think your last sentence is also adequate.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Manipulation for good just means you've assumed that you know whats better for them than they do.

    There are a few cases where this is OK. Such as a child of yours or someone mentally incapable of knowing whats in their best interest.

    I know I don't want to be manipulated whether for good intentions or ill.
    I don't think she necessarily means manipulated for good intentions (though that does happen). I think she means you express your emotions (or don't) with the thought in mind of how it will affect others and what it means to the relationship or the situation in the long run.

    "Manipulation for good" can include behaving in an appropriate manner to make people feel better, I don't see that as being classically manipulative, not in the way that you describe in terms of a mentally challenged person or child.

    When I say I am conscious of how my facial expressions and behavior affect people, I mean I'm careful to keep certain things under control, I smile at people when I want them to like me, and I know a certain facial expression can make a child stop and behave themselves.

    You were speaking about giving people a "fuck off" vibe in another thread. This is a form of emotional manipulation, whether or not you think of it as such.

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