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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #251
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    I'm also wondering how much the different expressions of Fe and Fi are influenced by enneagram social variants. For example, I am an so/sx, unlike many of the INFJs I know who are sp/sx or sp/so. I think that changes how many people perceive me and the way I relate. Some people have even wondered if I'm ENFJ for that reason, but I don't believe that I am. I also think that our own personal lens of exposure to other types, life experiences and experiences with specific types influences the way we relate as well.

  2. #252
    Away with the fairies Array Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    So, if that's true and it's a reasonable but imperfect view of Fe, then I wonder how many of these things someone who prefers Fi (Fi dom or aux especially) would say resonate with them. The question is what is different?
    Out of the list, these resonate with me:

    - The group, its associated dynamics, culture and how it functions.
    - Patterns of behaviors and motivations that others seem have in the group.
    - Society more broadly and how you can give back or contribute to it
    - The dynamics of how people relate to one another
    - Understanding individual's behaviors, motivations, desires and beliefs (note: especially this one)
    - Understanding the nature of the relationship between you and this other person - with all of its nuances
    - Assessing consistency of behavior of individuals and behavior with social protocols
    - How decisions, actions, or expressed opinions are going to be reacted to, countered or felt by others and weighing benefits and costs of the course of action
    - Using all angles of how the group works, connects, gets along (or doesn’t) and all of their views and then deciding what course of action is most amenable to the intended goal while accommodating the most people
    - Given all of the above factors - how much of yourself do you invest in relating to them; also, how do you customize your interaction for the situation
    The thing is I'm interested in these (bolded) things but for some I think its FiNe imitating Fe style thinking: ie. everything relating to patterns of human behaviour.

    Also some of these I somewhat relate to but what puts me off is that they are way too goal driven for me; and 'goal-driven' is something I remember someone in a previous thread hypothesised Fe as being. I'm interested in these dynamics just for the sake of it - I don't need it to have a purpose or an end.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  3. #253
    Administrator Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Just was thinking about one point mentioned above - I think when I allow anger or frustration to show, it is either because I have weighed the consequences and decided that there is some merit in the possibly resulting conflict or else I genuinely think I've got it under control and misjudge at what point I ought to bring things up before they come out in less solution-oriented forms. Sometimes it doesn't seem like any one thing is significant enough to bring up, but collectively they form a larger picture that denotes an underlying issue. If I wait until I absolutely have a complete, annotated and irrefutable list of behaviours backing up my hypothesis and have ruled out other possible motives etc, usually I feel rather emotionally involved. If I don't wait until then, I feel that I may be being hasty and that my emotions may ebb and flow unreliably or that I am missing something important that would put the other person's behaviour in context. I am learning now though that it is probably better to speak a little sooner before my feelings towards the other person are affected and so that I can get their take on it, so that my information is more accurate. I've found this forum very helpful in realizing that conflict (as long as it is solution-oriented) can be very useful and isn't always to be avoided. I would naturally tend to withdraw from conflict if it didn't seem necessary for carrying on the level of relationship I enjoy with someone close to me or if it is not required to continue working effectively with someone or if it would threaten my relationship to someone. I'm finding though that sometimes conflict brings out divergence in perspective that was not apparent to me when speaking more casually. In nearly every case here, it has resulted in a better mutual understanding of each other, and I usually come away with something useful to take into my future interactions.

    I guess the point I'm making is that even though Fe may more deliberately display emotion or cover it up than Fi does, it is not in an attempt to be manipulative. Again, it is with the end goal in mind for what is the most productive to achieve the desired outcome. I find it extremely embarrassing if I display unexpected negative emotions in front of someone that I am not very close to. I don't like to burden other people with something if I have not put some thought into what my purpose is in sharing it. I also don't like spilling emotion unexpectedly because at that moment I can't express what it is I need (but do not have the resources available to me) to help me better deal with the situation at hand. It seems to me like that is unfair and selfish of me if I just expect them to solve my problem without me thinking it out first and trying to look at it from a variety of perspectives.
    One of the things that amazes me about all of this is just how sophisticated and nuanced the thought process is. It seems to be extremely analytical. I cannot even imagine in my wildest dreams going through such machinations. I don't mean it in a bad way. I'm somewhat in awe of the things you guys are describing. It makes me feel like a blundering idiot (interpersonally). Yet I don't think I'm terrible at interpersonal relationships. In particular, I think about how valuable these things could be in a leadership role.

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  4. #254
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    Well, Fidelia, my enneagram is a 5 or 6 w/ a SP/SO variant so my Fe comes off more analytical and detached because I am slow to emotionally react to things. I react after the fact. An INTP described me as "circumspect". EDIT: I am not sure if that has any relevance to what you asked.

  5. #255
    Senior Member Array IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    One of the things that amazes me about all of this is just how sophisticated and nuanced the thought process is. It seems to be extremely analytical. I cannot even imagine in my wildest dreams going through such machinations. I don't mean it in a bad way. I'm somewhat in awe of the things you guys are describing. It makes me feel like a blundering idiot (interpersonally). Yet I don't think I'm terrible at interpersonal relationships. In particular, I think about how valuable these things could be in a leadership role.
    it's really not that analytical in the moment, often times. each person, no matter the type, goes through a similar process. with mbti however, we're simply breaking down what one person does in a moments notice.

    you, as an INTJ do a similar process, but with different functions and in a different way from a xxFJ. fidelia mentioned how she may choose to display an emotion to achieve a particular response that she has first weighed out. but using a very simple example of this behavior, it could be getting snooty with one's boyfriend to achieve a particular response from the boyfriend. introverted sensing or introverted intuition paired with extroverted feeling is capable of making these sorts of decisions very quickly and on a moments notice. introverted intuition paired with extroverted thinking may make a similar quick thinking analysis and response, in say... a quickly thought out executive order. it's deciding the best course of action. and for the naturally gifted users, it's really not something that often needs a lot of analysis and thought.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
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  6. #256
    Administrator Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    it's really not that analytical in the moment, often times. each person, no matter the type, goes through a similar process. with mbti however, we're simply breaking down what one person does in a moments notice.

    you, as an INTJ do a similar process, but with different functions and in a different way from a xxFJ. fidelia mentioned how she may choose to display an emotion to achieve a particular response that she has first weighed out. but using a very simple example of this behavior, it could be getting snooty with one's boyfriend to achieve a particular response from the boyfriend. introverted sensing or introverted intuition paired with extroverted feeling is capable of making these sorts of decisions very quickly and on a moments notice. introverted intuition paired with extroverted thinking may make a similar quick thinking analysis and response, in say... a quickly thought out executive order. it's deciding the best course of action. and for the naturally gifted users, it's really not something that often needs a lot of analysis and thought.
    Oh right. I was really meaning everything that's been talked about by the Fe users in the thread though. It is the complexity of all of these factors in combination that are being considered - it's highly impressive.

    But you're right. We all do these things - just different preferences I suppose.

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  7. #257
    Away with the fairies Array Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I guess the point I'm making is that even though Fe may more deliberately display emotion or cover it up than Fi does, it is not in an attempt to be manipulative. Again, it is with the end goal in mind for what is the most productive to achieve the desired outcome. I find it extremely embarrassing if I display unexpected negative emotions in front of someone that I am not very close to. I don't like to burden other people with something if I have not put some thought into what my purpose is in sharing it. I also don't like spilling emotion unexpectedly because at that moment I can't express what it is I need (but do not have the resources available to me) to help me better deal with the situation at hand. It seems to me like that is unfair and selfish of me if I just expect them to solve my problem without me thinking it out first and trying to look at it from a variety of perspectives.
    I am also deliberate in not displaying emotions but not for the purpose of directly influencing the reactions of others. It comes from a lot more of a self-involved place. My focus is on controlling the image of myself that I convey, not particularly how I want people respond to that image - in other words its mainly about self-preservation. Although there can be an element of concern for others because I also don't like to burden people with my emotional outbursts. But mostly my thought process is "People don't like to hear this sort of thing. They may find me irritating or think less of me if I express it. Therefore I must control myself and keep it from them".

    Its interesting what you say about needing a purpose to express yourself openly. Purpose never figures into my thinking about such things. It comes down to whether I feel comfortable about being open or not, and nothing more.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  8. #258
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    I don't know - for me the purpose of expressing certain behaviours or emotions are not exactly to elicit a certain response from another person. I mean I may show a certain amount of emotion towards my boyfriend (positive or negative), but it's not to manipulate him into responding a certain way. Instead, it is that I am expressing or not expressing a certain percentage of what I'm feeling because I deem that it will be more useful than not to the practical solution of us interacting optimally together over the long term.

    However, I think IAJ is right that over time, the process becomes second nature enough that some of those nuances are just taken in as part of the big picture (like looking at a scene and perceiving the colours in it) rather than each part being individually considered and analyzed necessarily. It's an overall picture of what you are seeing.

    To me Te looks incredibly competent and complicated but I imagine that to you highlander, it is much more a part of your natural way of looking at the world. I admire your interest and tenacity in seeking out or verifying information, checking on facts, doing research, putting systems in place and so on. I find that difficult and overwhelming to do at times. I greatly dislike record keeping and get itchy just thinking about some of the things that I have forgotten to regularly keep track of. However, keeping track of information within a people system is not only easy for me, but is stimulating and pleasant because I'm better at that. It seems to me that you find Te tasks/outlooks not just something you see as necessary, but even enjoyable, because it is a strength of yours and a natural part of your general outlook.

    It seems to me to be a mistake to assume that either of the extraverted functions are somehow more blind or superficial than their introverted function counterparts. I think both have great breadth and depth of information, but their purposes are for very different, although complementary ends.

  9. #259
    Meat Tornado Array DiscoBiscuit's Avatar
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    ^ a font of knowledge if ever there was one.
    Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.
    - Edmund Burke

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  10. #260
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    Am I really the only person who will admit that making certain facial expressions or behaving in a certain manner is sometimes very much intended to elicit a particular response in other people?

    Maybe I'm the only one with a background in theater. However, I'd honestly say I partially learned to do this from my grandfather's wife. I still can't say whether or not she's ESFJ or ESTJ...seems harsher, more ordered, more like ESTJ...

    I have a hard time controlling some strong emotions at times, though, I'm completely overcome by them, and my tears are always genuine. I can't cry on command.

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