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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #211

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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Good summary, but I doubt if Fe-ers are denying themselves for the harmony of the group. Maybe their assessment aligns with the group, or maybe they are 'neutral' in that it's inconsequential to their well being. I'm sure if the group thought was counter to their personal values, they wouldn't go with it.
    In my experience, I just let my own view go in favour of what people want, or try to reconcile my pre-existing values with what the group wants. It's not like if my friends say: Let's murder orphans I will murder them just to get along. But a lot of times I am mentally calculating how can I assert what I want while minimizing group discord. Say I was ordering pizza for a social gathering. Just for the sake of metaphor, I know pizza isn't that tied to strong personal values. Maybe my first choice for pizza toppings wasn't pepperoni, but it's my third favourite, and I know most people in the group would be happy with that topping (Johnny is neutral to it, Sally loves it, Jackson said he liked it before if I do recall, etc). But ordering my favourite or second-favourite (let's say it's mushrooms and green peppers) would make Sally and Johnny unhappy, though Jackson would be okay with it. The natural choice would be to order pepperoni.

    Ideally, I keep adjusting the scales until I find the ideal ratio between maximum personal happiness to maximum group happiness. Unfortunately, a lot of times to be safe, I will put too much weight on what others want, but tell them all I am just as happy with it as they are. Not so much because I am selfless, but for peace of mind. If I am going to be the unhappy one, at least I know what I am dealing with, I don't have to play this mad guessing game to find out who's unhappy and how can I change that to put things back into balance. Sometimes, if I am very dissatisfied about my cut of the pie, I catch myself secretly resenting others for letting me screw myself over. It sometimes takes me a while to recognize that I am responsible for that fate, and how are they supposed to know unless I put forth my needs. Of course, that last part is probably just me.

  2. #212
    Carerra Lu Array IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    In my experience, I just let my own view go in favour of what people want, or try to reconcile my pre-existing values with what the group wants. It's not like if my friends say: Let's murder orphans I will murder them just to get along. But a lot of times I am mentally calculating how can I assert what I want while minimizing group discord. Say I was ordering pizza for a social gathering. Just for the sake of metaphor, I know pizza isn't that tied to strong personal values. Maybe my first choice for pizza toppings wasn't pepperoni, but it's my third favourite, and I know most people in the group would be happy with that topping (Johnny is neutral to it, Sally loves it, Jackson said he liked it before if I do recall, etc). But ordering my favourite or second-favourite (let's say it's mushrooms and green peppers) would make Sally and Johnny unhappy, though Jackson would be okay with it. The natural choice would be to order pepperoni.

    Ideally, I keep adjusting the scales until I find the ideal ratio between maximum personal happiness to maximum group happiness. Unfortunately, a lot of times to be safe, I will put too much weight on what others want, but tell them all I am just as happy with it as they are. Not so much because I am selfless, but for peace of mind. If I am going to be the unhappy one, at least I know what I am dealing with, I don't have to play this mad guessing game to find out who's unhappy and how can I change that to put things back into balance. Sometimes, if I am very dissatisfied about my cut of the pie, I catch myself secretly resenting others for letting me screw myself over. It sometimes takes me a while to recognize that I am responsible for that fate, and how are they supposed to know unless I put forth my needs. Of course, that last part is probably just me.
    So this can potentially be a blind spot for Fe. Sounds like you could convince yourself that it's the right thing to do, but in the end realize that your actions don't feel good to self.
    How comfortable would you be to insist on your favorites, like everyone else? Like pepperoni for you, the other toppings might not be their favorites, but tolerable.

    Most people are willing to compromise and meet in the middle so that all needs can be generally be accomodated; no one person gets everything; no one will get noting.

    Would it be possible for you to pause and take a step back to remind yourself that your views are just as valuable? How much of a stretch is that?

  3. #213
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    I think there is a bit of an overreach of what Fe and Fi mean in this thread.

    Fe doesn't imply that one is socially adept. Otherwise, xxFJ babies would be "socially adept."

    Rather, Fe implies that one is very much aware of, and thinks in terms of, social interactions - the "social game," if you will. It does not imply either skill or particular interest along those lines.

    Similarly, Fi doesn't imply self awareness or harmony with oneself: such people don't tend to cause much controversy when posting. Rather, the attitude of Fi is well-suited to achieving self awareness/harmony.

    I think of the functions, abstractly, as "vectors." A vector doesn't necessarily have a particular point in space, it is just a direction. It indicates what you tend to look for and how you tend to evaluate it, it does not indicate what you saw and the results of your evaluation.

  4. #214
    Carerra Lu Array IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Yeah, sometimes we will realize that we might not get our own personal ideal outcome, and we'll sacrifice that 100% of what we want if we know that it will benefit the most people. But it doesn't mean we're squelching/ignoring values. It seems weird to talk about Fe in terms of values, anyway, since that seems to be more of a Fi word. I mean, sure, I have values. But I don't think of the world or every decision in terms of right/wrong/ethics. Sometimes it's "what is the best outcome we can manage for this situation?" There are definitely some issues that hit my "morally correct" button. But I don't have a values-based opinion on everything. Also, sometimes my personal belief might not really matter or be relevant to the situation at hand. I carefully choose when to fight a values fight. Though I'm sure Fi-ers do that all the time, too.
    As a Fi dude I do, although 'feelings' aren't my strongsuit LOL.

  5. #215

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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    So this can potentially be a blind spot for Fe. Sounds like you could convince yourself that it's the right thing to do, but in the end realize that your actions don't feel good to self.
    How comfortable would you be to insist on your favorites, like everyone else? Like pepperoni for you, the other toppings might not be their favorites, but tolerable.

    Most people are willing to compromise and meet in the middle so that all needs can be generally be accomodated; no one person gets everything; no one will get noting.

    Would it be possible for you to pause and take a step back to remind yourself that your views are just as valuable? How much of a stretch is that?
    Well now that I think of it, I know that sacrificing things far too much for others sake makes you unhappy. So to prevent others from pulling that trick, I hide my preferences, or if I know the group preference, I will say that is my preference. That way if others try to inconvenience themselves for me, they can't succeed. They would just be serving the group.

    If I step back and say: Forever_J, your needs are important too, my brain just says: 'yeah, and you need for everyone to be happy, because it freaks you out way too much when others are unhappy because of you. So forget what you want! ' And so I say, square dancing? I...love...square...dancing. I feel guilty getting what I want if it means anyone else losing out at all. But once I am satisfied everyone is perfectly content with the situation, I can finally relax and enjoy myself. Except I am usually in a shitty situation by the time everyone is happy, because I gave up so much just to get there. So then I get mad that it took that much sacrifice to make them happy. I often forget that ultimately I have been doing this to myself, for myself, in a way.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    In my experience, I just let my own view go in favour of what people want, or try to reconcile my pre-existing values with what the group wants. It's not like if my friends say: Let's murder orphans I will murder them just to get along. But a lot of times I am mentally calculating how can I assert what I want while minimizing group discord. Say I was ordering pizza for a social gathering. Just for the sake of metaphor, I know pizza isn't that tied to strong personal values. Maybe my first choice for pizza toppings wasn't pepperoni, but it's my third favourite, and I know most people in the group would be happy with that topping (Johnny is neutral to it, Sally loves it, Jackson said he liked it before if I do recall, etc). But ordering my favourite or second-favourite (let's say it's mushrooms and green peppers) would make Sally and Johnny unhappy, though Jackson would be okay with it. The natural choice would be to order pepperoni.
    But does a person have to have Fe to realize that this is the sensible thing to do?

    Not so much because I am selfless, but for peace of mind.
    This is basically what I was getting at a couple of posts ago, and why I asked if it was really Fe or Fi/Te.

  7. #217
    Carerra Lu Array IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    Well now that I think of it, I know that sacrificing things far too much for others sake makes you unhappy. So to prevent others from pulling that trick, I hide my preferences, or if I know the group preference, I will say that is my preference. That way if others try to inconvenience themselves for me, they can't succeed. They would just be serving the group.

    If I step back and say: Forever_J, your needs are important too, my brain just says: 'yeah, and you need for everyone to be happy, because it freaks you out way too much when others are unhappy because of you. So forget what you want! ' And so I say, square dancing? I...love...square...dancing. I feel guilty getting what I want if it means anyone else losing out at all. But once I am satisfied everyone is perfectly content with the situation, I can finally relax and enjoy myself. Except I am usually in a shitty situation by the time everyone is happy, because I gave up so much just to get there. So then I get mad that it took that much sacrifice to make them happy. I often forget that ultimately I have been doing this to myself, for myself, in a way.
    Sounds like your Ni is making an assumption of the preference of the group as well as the strength of the preference? And your Fe based actions are carried out to prevent others from having to act? (Fe)

    I'm just asking for self understanding. This is interesting stuff.

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    Let's put it another way. What I personally meant by the "social chess game" is that it is the interaction between your actions, other people's actions, the consequences (cost and benefits). What should I do if the person does A), B), or, C)? What are my options now that they just picked C)? I factor in intent, motivation, genuineness my closeness to the person, what is the purpose?, what kind of outcome should be achieved? If I make the wrong move (based on the other person's reaction), I usually try to even out the playing field. It's typically not a manipulative ploy.

    Example: A person is annoyed.
    A) Ignore them (if I don't know them at all)
    B) Try to find out why (I have some sort of relationship w/ them)
    C) just pretend that nothing is going on (if it is obviously none of my business or it's between a third party)

    I sometimes do a mixture after a certain amount of time.

    This is my own personal Fe!
    Okay I relate to this, but sometimes what I do is manipulative, it has to be in order for there to be peace...and I mainly apply this IRL when I am working with a group of people, or say, living with a bunch of roommates.

    I would rather there be the maximum peace and happiness if possible (unless something is going on that I find completely appalling, like in the case with my family a few years ago) so I would rather shift myself and learn the structure of the people I'm dealing with so that I know how to act around them to have peace, and in those cases I will become annoyed with someone who openly doesn't seem to be "with the program" like my ESFP roommate.

    I don't know if this is Fe, or something that simply comes from living around a lot of people and just realize that the sensible thing to do is to make adjustments (like letting minor things go that I don't like, or buying ear plugs instead of harping on a roommate to be quiet unless they're just obnoxiously blasting music or something).

  9. #219

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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    But does a person have to have Fe to realize that this is the sensible thing to do?



    This is basically what I was getting at a couple of posts ago, and why I asked if it was really Fe or Fi/Te.
    In answer to your question, you're right. I didn't say it was Fe-specific, I set that up for the final paragraph. I said: I would do this, ideally, but I actually do...I wasn't very clear about that though.

    In answer to your comment, sorry I missed your post. Maybe it is! But maybe it's just how Fi users do Fe-ish things. Since it's applying Te-utilitarianism to Fi personal values. I suspect my Fi comes from Fe/Ti. Maybe not, just a thought. I remember Solitary_Walker talking about this a while ago and I forget how the conversation turned out.

    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Sounds like your Ni is making an assumption of the preference of the group as well as the strength of the preference? And your Fe based actions are carried out to prevent others from having to act? (Fe)

    I'm just asking for self understanding. This is interesting stuff.
    Yes, I guess when you frame it like that, it makes sense.

    Also, if I have no immediate, direct info on what they want, my Ni generates a lot of assumptions based on past data that I may be able to extrapolate from to get something to work with. Once the Fe is sufficiently informed/instructed by Ni, it is allowed to act. If that makes sense.

  10. #220
    Carerra Lu Array IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post

    Yes, I guess when you frame it like that, it makes sense. If I have no immediate, direct info on what they want, my Ni generates a lot of assumptions based on past data that I may be able to extrapolate from to get something to work with. Once the Fe is sufficiently informed/instructed by Ni, it is allowed to act. If that makes sense.
    I understand. It's the same thing with one who uses Si, except the data is taken more as a 'what it is/face value' rather than the assumptions.
    I'm sure the Si based Fe-ers' actions are the same with the same intent.

    Thanks for sharing.

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