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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #201
    Senior Member Array Synapse's Avatar
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    Interesting.

    I do that too in some way, in a systematic way I reinterpret the energies of people and know the character of people without needing to see their orbit which goes beyond personality. I still can when I want to, and link up many many situations that I become aware of whether I want to or not. I know at what point stuff happens and why. Its different, instead of an orbit its energy signatures. Its an attunement to different frequencies in positive and negative alignment of intention.

    Its like seeing and hearing different stories around an orbit, you can reinterpret the energy of the stories and the intentions. In a subtle context the underlining emotional and thought complexities that circumvent the projection that happens from how people have become. And in becoming I can sense the reactions that happen before they happen sometimes. I sometimes tweak the outcome, say in an argument I say stuff that would seem strange but it changes the tone and flavour of discussion when said in the right way, almost piercing going to the heart of what the issue is and diffuse a building circular premise thats looping.

    Other times, most times really, I observe the frequencies. Which is why I know how peoples energies exist along their frequencies of what is acceptable and unacceptable in their interpretation of intention that is expressed towards them by others and where their boundaries and trigger points are. That is much akin to seeing a persons intimate aspect of themselves beyond their own awareness of how much their interpretative state is charged from the energy that is integrated, created and diffused. And the passions and imaginations and the analysis that spills forth is from a source of being in their frequency that is often in or out of alignment to themselves.

    And in that respect much of what happens is a fragment, a fragment that is in opposition to experience, and when there are multiple oppositions pressure surrounds the orbital frequencies and then being emotionally invested is a certainty whether your a feeler or thinker. just different sides of a similar pattern that converges to an equilibrium if you let it, if you sense it enough. many people misunderstand this aspect and believe and think in a dimensional way rather than a multidimensional way.

    Its how limiting beliefs are. you see it, you hear it, you feel it, but you don't see it, you don't feel it and you don't hear it after all, you just think and feel you do. Ha I do that too, its being in a singular state rather than a harmonised state of frequency. Or if you will a synchronized state of seeing and being in the frequency of another orbit, intention, experience, how interactions whether intrapersonally or interpersonally happen etc.

    And in that way without equanimity in understanding that pertains to abstract or surface conclusions its like a piece of a mosaic rather than a whole. an interpretation that is seen like a sphere with limits, rather than a sphere without limits that transcend beyond the sphere itself. and much of this story sharing comes from the reinterpretation of influential frequencies that in a subconscious way alter your thought and feeling perceptions from the people you look up to, admire, listen to. easily this then becomes a bit of a mirroring mantra in the way interpretation happens when learned from your family, relatives, friends, media etc. we think we know the energies that are, we feel we understand them, when through the beliefs we adopt pile upon our own frequencies like dents on a road traveled well. The strangeness of it is they tend to be distortions passed on from their own misunderstandings in frequency to their orbit and alignment and their dents in their traveled road and none appear to come to a consensus on a soul level, the representation of their orbital infrastructure.

    And then I'm seeing multilayered colours that radiates astonishing beauty that translates to your dimension which has a blanket wrapped around and the nature is such. This self perpetuation is removed from the self belief of being the creator in our lives into being the victim, so much that we are in the frequencies that we think and feel are safest for use to value and believe instead of reclaiming our integration of becoming.

    Life is far more vast than the vessels we incorporate as the social design we are handling and interpreting in our own ways. And the impressions that happen happen from under the intonation of frequency and energy fields that surround us first and what is familiar and unfamiliar in our experiences of the positive and negative infrastructure of our being.

    Something is true though even in the knowing the basic needs are unfulfilled every time because while I know I forgotten how to properly express myself, the aspect of me that does is switched off and when its in curious form.

    Life where would we be without life.
    I like introspection.

  2. #202
    Emerging Array Tallulah's Avatar
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    I think I probably observe a lot of the same things fidelia and violaine are talking about, but the chess game and the "orbit" are a bit unnerving to me, as concepts, probably because it sounds like the process is to observe how people are behaving according to how people usually behave (the social rules) and might not account for individuality or differences in temperament/type (I've definitely been the object of some SJ projecting in the past). I think sometimes people observe behavior and social groups without realizing that just because something is likely to happen, or even usually happens, doesn't mean it will for that person (ie: They hang out together a lot; they're different genders. They MUST be dating.) A lot of assumptions like that are how gossip gets started in certain circles.

    But since I find that I don't observe these particular INFJs doing that sort of thing or assigning incorrect motivations to others, I'm thinking that it's the metaphor itself that seems unnerving, rather than the actual process. I do a fair amount of this kind of thing myself; I do hang back and observe people, their habits, their patterns of interaction, etc., before I engage with them on a deeper level. I am also unable NOT to see when evidence points to the idea that I or others might be headed down a disastrous path...in relationships, especially.
    Something Witty

  3. #203
    wants Mifune clone minion Array Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    How about I walk out on a limb and say Fe people (not unlike TJ people) see other people as important items within a system, and Fi people see other people less as systematic items and more as relatively random (though often understandable) objects outside of them?

    That seems to me how I can understand Fe/Fi. But it's complicated by other functions being involved. How about this: the higher in the function order is Fi, the less likely a person is to care about systematizing the outer human environment, and by default the less able they are to systematize that outer environment, while the higher the Fe, the more likely the person is to care about outer organization and engage in organizational activity.

    As to what the specific goal of that organizational activity may be and what methods get used, presumably this varies according to the person and what they have come to know about themselves and others.
    I like the way that’s^ phrased.


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    @ Zara - I haven't really thought about it that way until wading into several of these threads. I don't really see me as being terribly conscious of the chess game. It sort of just is whether any of us want it to exist or not. Therefore, I think if your objective is to be able to go through life being able to accomplish your personal aims or be free or whatever else, the shortest path to doing so is to arm yourself with enough observation and knowledge that you can navigate the game successfully without being taken off the board. Does that make any sense? I think Fe-ers would even agree that it's a pity, but once you come to terms with the idea that that's how it is, then their attention turns to the idea, "So now what? What am I going to do with what's been handed to me?"

    This^ is almost exactly what occurred to me while reading Zarathustra’s comment too. Quite often I don’t like the game, but understanding how it’s played is a necessary component of living in the world with other people.


    Quote Originally Posted by violaine View Post
    Yes, I think Ni is that. I have always tended to observe and predict, not to leverage things, that doesn't even occur to me. It's in an almost purely analytical way. I don't know what the motivation or pay-off is but I just feel blind not doing that. It's like I'm 'pinging' my environment, taking readings. I know I don't have any real value judgements tied up with my observations, something has to be threatening before I act on my observations.

    Actually, talking about it like this, I can see why other people might find it creepy, like they are being analyzed constantly. I have had that complaint before. I don't actively seek information though, which makes me think I might appear cold (?) or disengaged when I'm pondering.
    I’ve said before that I think the way FJ’s perception is directed inward, that it’s almost comparable to the way a blind person needs to know where their furniture is through memory- they need to know it’s going to be in the same place or they won’t be able to navigate their environment well. Instead of using perception to navigate our external environment, we use Fe; much in the way- instead of using eyesight- a blind person uses memory. The more we rely on Pi and Je, the less we navigate using what’s directly there in front of us and rely on what we already know and how we expect things to work (and possibilities we've imagined about how things can work better)- which is why we build these big frameworks with the sticky notes to guide us, and why we’re careful about making sure the sticky notes are an accurate representation of our external environment. I think this is more true for IFJs than EFJs, and varies according to where Pe falls in one’s function order (and function order is rarely the stacking a type is ‘supposed’ to have on the individual level).

    So anyway, yeah, I’ve heard the overanalyzing bit myself. But it really seems to me like it’s just my way of interacting with the world. I’m not quick enough with Pe uptake for adequate immediate exchange; I'm not that malleable regarding the external world. And the analyzing is just a way of memorizing where the furniture is, making sure it is where we think it is. If that makes any sense.

    edit: and really, I mean, even Se doms do this to *some* extent- navigate the external world according to the judgment already in their heads- it's just that I think PiJe types do it the most, and in Pi + Fe types the system/framework is more people-centered.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  4. #204
    Horst Jensen Array entropie's Avatar
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    Dear Fe-users,

    could you please sum up this thread and hand me in the report by Friday.

    Thanks, your wager-payer

    P.S.: Understanding the game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6JTvzrpBy0
    Closer.to.Heaven
    Patience, that blending of moral courage with physical timidity.
    ~Tess of the D'Urbervilles by Thomas Hardy

  5. #205
    Plumage and Moult Array proteanmix's Avatar
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    Lot's of good stuff here...I'm happy to see the way this thread has progressed.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  6. #206
    Senior Member Array sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    No violaine, I do that too. I can't help it either. In fact one of the big things I find fascinating in getting to know new people is figuring out how they fit into the bigger picture. Even on this forum, I like knowing what other people are within one person's orbit, what they care about, what their hot buttons are, where their strengths lie, who they don't hitch with. I think in part it gives me a bigger sense of security because I better know what to expect from them. I also just find it fascinating. Some people like studying science or some kind of business system etc. I like studying human systems and seeing if I can find any particular "laws" at work within a particular little culture of people or within my own interactions with someone. I also like investigating how far afield those laws apply - do they work across many different sub-cultures or not? Is it a human condition or just a person or group specific one?
    So-let's call this Fe analysis. My best friend ENTP describes what you describe but extends it as to deciding if the other person is a "friend" or a "competitor". People shift in her Fe book depending upon their ability to influence the chess game. She says it is almost subconscious, she will just feel herself modifying her interactions with another as they gain or lose influence.

    Fi analysis for me is about individuals. I see each person as an individual, form deep caring bonds to that person, which obligate me to carry some of their pain. As an individual I dont notice how they relate to others at all-only the fluid intricacies of them as an individual, how they differ from yesterday, their eyes, the tone of their voice, the slump of their posture. There are no words or premeptive thoughts that accompany this. I walk up to them, then feel as though part of my self unfolds and wraps around them, molds over their form. It is very kinesthetic. I touch them with my soul. I look at them from the corner of my eye, not directly. I suspect this may be Fi working with Ne to form an internal simulacrum of the other person which allows me to cross reference their behavior overtime..It maps the essentials, the gist of the other person which Ne sews together.

    NeTe analysis is entirely different. NeTe seeks generic patterns. It strips the individual of their uniqueness and seeks trends across categories. This is what I use to analyze people on forums or to identify new MBTI patterns. In a thread I quickly stop seeing names and instead see trends across MBTI type. If four INFJs in a row say the same thing on a thread, then I see other infjs saying the same thing on multiple threads in different convos, then see INFJs saying the same thing on multiple forums, well it becomes a Te generalization wrt INFJs-meaning many but not all INFJs might be expected to follow a given behavioral pattern. To be honest I had no idea how little others can follow these Ne linkages until I started dating the INTJ. They are blatantly obvious to me and once explained, to my ENTP. I take these patterns and extend as far as I can until they break. I dont need the messy, gooey vague Fe-isms, built in my non native Fe as long as the more basic NeTe patterns are still predictive.

    For NeTe to be very effective, I have to have first applied Fi to map the individuals under study-it serves as a consistency check over time for their particular map. I also self check against the other ENFPs and as of late, INTJs and INFJs. If I can get others to see the pattern-I know it is legit and it it gives me confidence my other patterns are legit.

    I suspect much of my conflict with NFJs here arises as I cut the world of people up with NeTe underpinned by Fi built into Si generalizations. The NFJs study the world of people with Fe focused by NiTi based upon Se instances. Neither approach is invalid, but since we are cutting up the people pie in different ways, we are blind to each others approach. I admit this willingly and seek Fe insight... I dont see some of the Fe users being so willing to admit they cant see my approach, but rather they deny its validity.

  7. #207
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    Let's put it another way. What I personally meant by the "social chess game" is that it is the interaction between your actions, other people's actions, the consequences (cost and benefits). What should I do if the person does A), B), or, C)? What are my options now that they just picked C)? I factor in intent, motivation, genuineness my closeness to the person, what is the purpose?, what kind of outcome should be achieved? If I make the wrong move (based on the other person's reaction), I usually try to even out the playing field. It's typically not a manipulative ploy.

    Example: A person is annoyed.
    A) Ignore them (if I don't know them at all)
    B) Try to find out why (I have some sort of relationship w/ them)
    C) just pretend that nothing is going on (if it is obviously none of my business or it's between a third party)

    I sometimes do a mixture after a certain amount of time.

    This is my own personal Fe!

  8. #208
    Senior Member Array Synapse's Avatar
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    Looks like I went a bit too abstract there, one of a kind. I like reading threads like these, makes total sense to whats going on. Its like Fe and Fi are hieroglyphics, a total mystery for some while totally, what, isn't that how everyone does it.

  9. #209
    Carerra Lu Array IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I have thought about it some more and do not think consensus is the best word. This is how I see the comparison of the functions:

    Fi
    Whose feelings? - It cares about it's own feelings
    What values? - It is about listing to your conscience; your own internal standards and ethics. The values it concerns itself with are private subjective core values. They are personal values
    At what cost? - You are following your own value system regardless as to the consequence
    Harmony with who? - It's about harmony with oneself

    Fe
    Whose feelings?- It is centered on the feelings of others and creating an environment of harmony
    What values? - It is concerned with objective generally accepted values and norms
    At what cost? - It sacrifices personal values so as to not offend other peopleHarmony with who?- It is about harmony with others

    Also, Fe is inclined towards immediate, concrete and specific action. It wants to do things - affirm people, make them happy, establish harmony, etc. Fi is not so focused on this unless it is really riled up in which case, it can react very strongly.
    Good summary, but I doubt if Fe-ers are denying themselves for the harmony of the group. Maybe their assessment aligns with the group, or maybe they are 'neutral' in that it's inconsequential to their well being. I'm sure if the group thought was counter to their personal values, they wouldn't go with it.

  10. #210
    Emerging Array Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Good summary, but I doubt if Fe-ers are denying themselves for the harmony of the group. Maybe their assessment aligns with the group, or maybe they are 'neutral' in that it's inconsequential to their well being. I'm sure if the group thought was counter to their personal values, they wouldn't go with it.
    Yeah, sometimes we will realize that we might not get our own personal ideal outcome, and we'll sacrifice that 100% of what we want if we know that it will benefit the most people. But it doesn't mean we're squelching/ignoring values. It seems weird to talk about Fe in terms of values, anyway, since that seems to be more of a Fi word. I mean, sure, I have values. But I don't think of the world or every decision in terms of right/wrong/ethics. Sometimes it's "what is the best outcome we can manage for this situation?" There are definitely some issues that hit my "morally correct" button. But I don't have a values-based opinion on everything. Also, sometimes my personal belief might not really matter or be relevant to the situation at hand. I carefully choose when to fight a values fight. Though I'm sure Fi-ers do that all the time, too.
    Something Witty

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