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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #151
    Plumage and Moult Array proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Well, I'm trying to describe something that I supposedly don't use very much and that I view from the outside. Maybe you can come up with a better description. I have known a lot of people who are strong Fe users (usually it is aux though) who very much are self sacrificing. They do things for others. They are concerned about the feelings of others. They make judgments about how others should behave and not behave. In general, they are simply highly others centric. I don't see this as feeble, weak or passive at all. In fact it seems highly action oriented.
    Alright, the same way Fi users have the ability to focus on aspects of Fi that are personally relevant to them, is the way Fe users have the ability to focus on aspects of Fe that are personally relevant to them. So if a Fe users connects to the "service to others" aspect of Fe that does not mean all Fe users attach the same value to that particular aspect. So yes, while the Fe users (or FJs) you come into contact with may display that tendency, it isn't necessarily the definitive Fe feature. This is my own personal view of the functions but I tend to see them as a playbook that a person can choose which play within the [insert cognitive function] Playbook they're going to run and which ones are most comfortable for them to operate in.

    Also, if you're in contact with mostly IxFJs I think taking into account Interaction Style may be of great help to you. That may account for some of what you experience and what you notice in your daily life. Two FJs are ExxJs, and for me I'm a pretty strong EJ, which means when if left unchecked, my style is to bulldoze and assert my will. When I'm being bad and get feedback it tends to be along the lines of "you can't have your way all the time," so this self-sacrificial stuff is foreign to me. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say there are a fair amount of other (E)FJs like me who will mow you down (this is not a good trait!) before they throw themselves on a funeral pyre for you.

    Another thing is that if this if the only aspect of Fe you identify as Fe you may not be attuned to recognizing other facets as Fe. Your Fe markers are:
    • Self-sacrificing
    • Focus on others/what other people think
    • Group identity
    • Conventional


    Would you recognize FJs who don't fit this pattern? Would they be something else entirely to you or they would be thought of as outliers and abnormalities rather than a legitimate "strain" of Fe users?

    Interesting points. So if it is all about connections and relationships - how do you go about doing that?
    I gave an example earlier in this post about a conversation with a friend of mine and the problems she was having with her mentor. I also wrote this post outlining a thought process of mine in the Fe Quick Reference thread. I also explained a real life conflict for me between my individual identity and my group identity.

    Forgive me if I'm over-interpreting but the way I read your train of thought is: "I have personal values too - why do the Fi users think they are so special?"
    No. I see it as I have personal values too, why would someone think I'd rollover backwards and disregard them or that mine are any less important to me when the chips are down?

    "Who says their values are any better than anybody else's"
    Yes.
    "All these individual values lead to chaos"
    Yes and no. There needs to be some consensus and agreement or you'll have everyone deciding what is right based on what they believe without any sort of check and balance. Someone could have a really whacked out value set. When there's a group of people like they're I believe they're called a cult. When that value set reaches critical mass then you have a culture of really bad stuff and that's no better.

    "you're not explaining your grandiose values anyway, so I can't do anything with this".
    Yes! Throw me a bone, what is it that you value, maybe we'll see they're not so different after all. If they're irreconcilable then we need to figure out what do do. If you don't communicate what's important to you how do you expect anyone else to know and why get frustrated with others for not magically knowing? And another thing if you can't articulate them then move out of the line of fire until you can (not you personally highlander) because you will be offended and view almost everything as a attack on your value system until you can tell others what they are so people will know what they're working with.

    And if you do communicate your values and people don't agree or see it in the same way then such is life. That doesn't mean give up, it means find an alternate route. Find a special interest group that aligns with your worldview, find other like-minded individuals and make inroads.

    You seem to be discounting the other perspective. Isn't it fine that there are two different perspectives and that they are equally valid? I've said it before and I will say it again - there is no reason to think that either function is better than the other. They are just different. It also doesn't mean that we don't use both of them. We just prefer one over the other.
    I think I said exactly this earlier in the thread. I suppose this means we're in agreement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross
    I don't know about other Fi Doms/aux (I mean in terms of when Fi is extremely central to decision making) but I have come to realise that I evaluate almost everything in a 'moral' sense - not necessarily in the conflict righteous/evil or good/bad but more right/wrong. Even though I don't think of most situations as involving an ethical decision, I unconsciously approach it that way nonetheless. I might not refuse to do something small that felt wrong (such as your example of wasting paper) but I would still feel rather uneasy and guilty for failing to do what my heart says is right. My conscience is beating me up about one thing or another, constantly and relentlessly. I care about everything; by that I mean, I have a value based reaction to almost everything. That is what the 'personal values' term represents to me. However, I am mostly harder on myself than others - being able to live with my own behaviour is my first and foremost concern. I don't constantly hold others to all of my values. It is usually only when people are being hurt (physically of emotionally) or being unfairly disadvantaged that I am unmovable and expect things of others. I have noticed that some Fe users confuse my high standards for my own behaviour with an expectation or judgement on them, which is not what I intend.
    OK, this is good to know. I don't have a value-based reaction to everything. I have a value-based reaction to some things and when there's a conflict I don't choose peace and harmony to the detriment of what I believe, which is how I've been interpreting some of the comments in this thread. For example, when I go the store and see items labeled "Fair Trade" I don't have a value attached to that. Sometimes I buy, sometimes I don't. I support it as an idea, but not always in action and I don't feel bad about it when I don't. But I will always take my reusable grocery bags because I feel like that is something within my control to contribute to and make a measurable difference.

    Maybe that's where this conformist idea is coming from. If I don't have a value attached to something then yes I let the status quo handle it (uh-oh dangerous!). The corollary to this is people don't know what others have values attached to unless they say or act in a way that let's others know what they are. BTW, this does not mean that I wouldn't intercede to wrongdoing or violations to other human beings. People take that too far.

    I'm wary of people that have a value attached to almost everything but I do realize people like this serve as collective conscience and I'm grateful for that. I'm wondering if a Fi user has VIP value attached to something and someone else doesn't, what do you think? I keep wondering what type most hardcore PETA activists are.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander
    Does anyone think Fi tends to be more idealistic and Fe more practical? It seems like an impression I might be getting.
    OMG, yes. I thought that feature that was widely known.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Alright, the same way Fi users have the ability to focus on aspects of Fi that are personally relevant to them, is the way Fe users have the ability to focus on aspects of Fe that are personally relevant to them. So if a Fe users connects to the "service to others" aspect of Fe that does not mean all Fe users attach the same value to that particular aspect. So yes, while the Fe users (or FJs) you come into contact with may display that tendency, it isn't necessarily the definitive Fe feature. This is my own personal view of the functions but I tend to see them as a playbook that a person can choose which play within the [insert cognitive function] Playbook they're going to run and which ones are most comfortable for them to operate in.
    But, what function decides which play is best, lol I personally think that another function has to step in to override another functions comfort zone with J types. For me its normally other people that override my comfort zone.
    Take what I say with a grain of salt, because that's all it is compared to the ocean of complexity when it comes to actions and real life.

  3. #153
    Plumage and Moult Array proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    But, what function decides which play is best, lol I personally think that another function has to step in to override another functions comfort zone with J types. For me its normally other people that override my comfort zone.
    Agree. When my Fe is unchecked it's like No Wire Hangers.

    When I can't see myself I rely on the feedback of my family and friends that tell me when I'm being a stank booty.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #154
    Administrator Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Your Fe markers are:
    • Self-sacrificing
    • Focus on others/what other people think
    • Group identity
    • Conventional


    Would you recognize FJs who don't fit this pattern? Would they be something else entirely to you or they would be thought of as outliers and abnormalities rather than a legitimate "strain" of Fe users?
    First, I am biased based on heavier exposure to ISFJs and I may not recognize EXFJs as well IRL. You're right about that. I guess I had different things that I mentioned in different places. I attempted to describe the characteristics of Fe as:

    "Whose feelings?- It is centered on the feelings of others and creating an environment of harmony
    What values? - It is concerned with objective generally accepted values and norms
    At what cost? - It sacrifices personal values so as to not offend other people
    Harmony with who?- It is about harmony with others

    Also, Fe is inclined towards immediate, concrete and specific action. It wants to do things - affirm people, make them happy, establish harmony, etc. Fi is not so focused on this unless it is really riled up in which case, it can react very strongly."

    I also said this: "I have known a lot of people who are strong Fe users (usually it is aux though) who very much are self sacrificing. They do things for others. They are concerned about the feelings of others. They make judgments about how others should behave and not behave. In general, they are simply highly others centric."


    I believe the thing you reacted to most strongly is "At what cost". You also don't seem to like the allusion to "convention."

    This is your dominant process. You should be the expert in it. I'm just attempting to comprehend it.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I also wrote this post outlining a thought process of mine in the Fe Quick Reference thread. I also explained a real life conflict for me between my individual identity and my group identity.
    I'm not going to respond to anything else in your post for now - not because it isn't important but because what you wrote in that other thread is so good. It seems to be an incredible description of Fe in practice. Gaining clarity on the definition seems to be what is most important. Sparing you from a much longer analysis that I wrote up, these are the key things I'm taking out of that post. You are drawn to or focused on the following things, which you attribute to Fe:

    - The group, it's associated dynamics, culture and how it functions.
    - Patterns of behaviors and motivations that others seem have in the group.
    - Society more broadly and how you can give back or contribute to it
    - The dynamics of how people relate to one another
    - Understanding individual's behaviors, motivations, desires and beliefs
    - Understanding the nature of the relationship between you and this other person - with all of it's nuances
    - Given all of the above factors - how much of yourself do you invest in relating to them; also, how do you customize your interaction for the situation - how do you interact or respond

    Did I get it right?

    You also said this

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post

    Consciously, I tend to operate on these levels, no particular order of importance and I hope that people can see the distinction between these very similar outlooks:

    • how I see me (looking at myself)
    • how other people see me (other people looking at me)
    • how I see other people seeing me (looking at someone looking at me)
    • how I see myself towards other people (looking at me and another person together as a fly on the wall)


    I flicker back and forth between these outlooks and how I act and react depends on which outlook I think is most relevant to that particular situation. As you can see, most of my outlooks tend to be outside of myself because that's the outlook I give the most validity and reliability.
    Does what I wrote above capture all of the things you've said? I don't think so. At the very least, it seems incomplete. Then again I was trying to highlight the differences of Fi vs Fe vs. all of the characteristics of Fe.

    Goes back to drawing board.

    I must tell you that as an INTJ, this is fascinating to me because these things you focus on are somewhat of a "blind spot" for me. It isn't that I don't notice them at all or think of them. It's just that I would never think about these things so much and if I did, I don't know if I'd ever trust my perceptions the way you do. I wouldn't analyze the motivations and behaviors in such a way. If I wanted to understand a particular individual, I would try to put myself in their shoes - it is a form of projection I suppose. What would I do if I were them? I would leverage any data point I had to synthesize the perspective but generally speaking the focus would tend to be on one individual at a time as opposed to patterns in groups of individuals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Also, Fe is inclined towards immediate, concrete and specific action. It wants to do things - affirm people, make them happy, establish harmony, etc. Fi is not so focused on this unless it is really riled up in which case, it can react very strongly."
    Why do I get the impression that your understanding of Fi is heavily based on the fact that you are Fi AND J. Define Fi focus in an NON-J context. You just defined the extremes of Fi focus, now define the NON extreme. My guess is that this NON Fi extreme is so heavily intertwined with your Fe dfinition/understanding you cant do it.

    edit: FWIW, I recognize Fi best by sight, sound, interaction, etc. not a definition.


    Maybe my perception is skewed as I see alot of Fi people who have this as a focus and arent riled up or reacting strongly.

    I think you miss the Fi reaching out in a P manner. A much more subtle manner that is focused on affirm people, make them happy, establish harmony.
    Take what I say with a grain of salt, because that's all it is compared to the ocean of complexity when it comes to actions and real life.

  6. #156
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    Just to put out there, Highlander, I as an ENFJ operate much differently than most ISFJs I know (they actually seem pretty foreign to me). In many ways, (other than possibly the INFJ), I relate to the ENTJ the most.

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    Administrator Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Why do I get the impression that your understanding of Fi is heavily based on the fact that you are Fi AND J. Define Fi focus in an NON-J context. You just defined the extremes of Fi focus, now define the NON extreme. My guess is that this NON Fi extreme is so heavily intertwined with your Fe dfinition/understanding you cant do it.

    edit: FWIW, I recognize Fi best by sight, sound, interaction, etc. not a definition.


    Maybe my perception is skewed as I see alot of Fi people who have this as a focus and arent riled up or reacting strongly.

    I think you miss the Fi reaching out in a P manner. A much more subtle manner that is focused on affirm people, make them happy, establish harmony.
    OK - so maybe you can come up with something better. I'm trying to highlight differences between Fe and Fi. What do you think they are?

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    Administrator Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    Just to put out there, Highlander, I as an ENFJ operate much differently than most ISFJs I know (they actually seem pretty foreign to me). In many ways, (other than possibly the INFJ), I relate to the ENTJ the most.
    I believe it. That makes some sense.

    Interestingly enough, I initially got into this stuff through interaction with an ENFJ. I simply couldn't understand where he was coming from. For a long time, I couldn't decide if he was an ENFJ or an ENTJ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    Just to put out there, Highlander, I as an ENFJ operate much differently than most ISFJs I know (they actually seem pretty foreign to me). In many ways, (other than possibly the INFJ), I relate to the ENTJ the most.
    You and Jag, both.

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    Me and Jag, what? lol He doesn't like people typing him.

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