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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #131
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Fi
    Whose feelings? - It cares about it's own feelings
    What values? - It is about listing to your conscience; your own internal standards and ethics. The values it concerns itself with are private subjective core values. They are personal values
    At what cost? - You are following your own value system regardless as to the consequence
    Harmony with who? - It's about harmony with oneself
    This is a very good Ni hunt for the underlying rules of Fi ^^

    I value the happiness of others a great deal-to the point of being a people pleaser.

    I suspect since I strongly mirror the pain of those around me-their pain becomes my internal feelings- thus I seek to minimize that internal pain, by helping the other people or finding ways to make their existence happier.

    Over a lifetime, this yields personal values focused on helping others be happier and minimizing the pain and unhappiness of others.

    I, personally, will sacrifice happiness of the people in the short term in order to achieve long term happiness-and suffer the consequences of immediate anger and frustration on their part. NeTe can see a better future via change. The resultant long term happiness yields internal harmony-with myself.

    Interestingly-Ne forces me to feel the feelings of those close to me and those I have never met through extrapolation/connection. By taking your above rules and applying them to each Fi type, it might explain how Fi can develop such different values. SWEET!

  2. #132
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Fe
    Whose feelings?- It is centered on the feelings of others and creating an environment of harmony
    What values? - It is concerned with objective generally accepted values and norms
    At what cost? - It sacrifices personal values so as to not offend other people
    Harmony with who?- It is about harmony with others

    Also, Fe is inclined towards immediate, concrete and specific action. It wants to do things - affirm people, make them happy, establish harmony, etc. Fi is not so focused on this unless it is really riled up in which case, it can react very strongly.
    Not true, I just don't know how many times I have to say it. I am not a sacrificial lamb and I quite openly (as tactfully and diplomatically as I know how) disagree with people. Like you have mentioned, sometimes it's not worth fighting it but when it is you do.

    Maybe I'm around abnormal Fe-users (particularly FJs) because that is simply not the case based on my personal experiences. FJs are I know are quite vocal when they disagree and will make the biggest scene you've ever had the pleasure to witness and will tear the place down if you try to stop them. I've made the scene before and will probably do so many times in my life. Not the best or most flattering Fe trait, but it exists.

    I guess also when you say that, it makes Fe feel passive and feeble, but that's probably my spin on it. I also think this is another problem when people talk about Fe: Fi is allowed to be individually experienced--no two people experience it the same allegedly. Yet Fe is pretty blanketedly the same, no matter where you go, who you are, or what your background is. Fe will have the same reactions, reach the same conclusions, behave in the same way, feel the same way, think the same thing. Why rob Fe users of their unique expressions of Fe? If a Fe user says, this is not me, I feel like there's this assumption the Fe user is inaccurately gauging themselves.

    Another thing, when a Fe user speaks about Fe, notice what aspect they emphasize. For example, I'm more into connections and relationships than harmony. Understand that each Fe users will hone on and identify with an aspect a Fe that strikes them. I admit that I feel good about my ability to analyze a relationship, but I'm not willing to STFU when I think something needs to be said. That has it's positives and negatives. Do you think IRL, FJs (I find it hard to lump TPs in with this) don't disagree with people and make it known? If I were a vegetarian and was given food with meat in it, I'd politely decline. I don't put myself out just to have harmony.

    I recently applied to a position that had a cognitive-behavioral question that asked, "Tell me about a time when you had to conform to a policy that you didn’t necessarily agree with. How did you proceed?"

    I'm curious to find out would Fi users refuse to do the work or quit the job because they didn't personally agree with something. This was my reply:

    If confronted with this situation, I would first assume good faith presuming that organizational policy is based on sound reasoning for the benefit of all. I understand that I may not have the whole picture at times, and an enhanced perspective often changes one’s opinion on a matter.

    I would have a conversation with my director to see if I am correctly interpreting the policy. It could be a simple difference in interpretation, which communication can clarify. If I disagreed with the policy on principle, ultimately I was hired to do a job and if I had a serious values misalignment, I would not have accepted employment. If I were asked to do something illegal or clearly unethical, I would begin looking for new employment.
    When the statement "personal values" is thrown about I feel like there are people constantly walking around drawing lines in the sand, refusing to do because a personal value is on the brink of being violated. Maybe I don't have very many personal values, so I don't feel like there's a constant assault on them. If I have a strongly held value, I'm not going to break it just to have peace. What kind of person does that make me...that means I don't stand for anything.

    This is what frustrates me about these Fe/Fi discussions, very often Fi users act like there's some moral vacuum with Fe. Not everything is a moral battleground. If my director asks me to print 10 copies of a report and I'm a fervent green activist, I've got a decision to make: my income or my value. First and foremost, I hope someone would be self-aware enough to not choose to be in an environment that would force them to constantly choose between their values and doing their job or living their life in a way they can be at peace with.

    Another thing, while you may feel your personal value is the most important thing in the world, that does not mean it in fact is or that it should be a priority for anyone else. If someone makes a completely opposite decision or evaluation based on their personal value it does not mean there is an absence of values because it doesn't agree with yours. This concept of personal value is so abstract and I think people hide in the grandioseness of it, never needing to explain it because it sounds so beautiful and lofty so it must be good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I could see this being especially hard on Fe. It also ties back into highlanders original statement "Just because I dont disagree openly, doesnt mean I agree with the Fe user" Contrast that with Proteanmix's, Pitsleah's and Jag's comments that they rarely see this disagreement in real life-likely because it is just easier for most people to let the lack of communication or disagreement go unmentioned.
    I didn't say that. I see disagreements and miscommunications all the time IRL but I DO NOT attribute them solely or even mostly to Fe/Fi differences. There are more salient contributing factors to disagreements than the ones some people on this forum continually choose to emphasize while ignoring the ones that are the elephants in the room.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  3. #133
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    On friday I finished my first Step II consultation. It was with an ENFP I work with. She tested as an ENTJ but verified as an ENFP. She described having anxiety attacks and emotional breakdowns because of her interactions with her boss and coworkers-mostly ESTPs.
    Coincidentally mirroring your own life, right? Yes, I remember your posts about all the big, bad, ESTPs in your workplace. Now, interactions with ESTPs are being blamed for her emotional breakdown and anxiety attacks. Does the blame game ever stop? She didn't have a breakdown because of someone's MBTI type. She needs professional psychological counseling.


    Jung spoke of this with respect to the P/J divide, but it seems that it could be replicated again and again. He said we project our own internal worldview...and assume the other people see the world the same way. So we all assume we are communicating-when in reality we exist in a state of mutual lifelong miscommunication.
    Myers created the P/J, but let's move on.

    Jung said a lot of things, but it doesn't mean what he said was true. Tell me we're not going to stop thinking for ourselves and make Jung our God. I don't even have a "worldview." I can't imagine automatically assuming people would see the world like me. It's absurd. They weren't raised by my parents and there are no two human brains alike.

    Proteanmix's, Pitsleah's and Jag's comments that they rarely see this disagreement in real life-likely because it is just easier for most people to let the lack of communication or disagreement go unmentioned.
    What is that nonsense?

    If you are going to resort to twisting my own words to suit your personal agenda then don't even bother mentioning my name. Since you failed to understand my post the first time, here it is again:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    What I have seen in this forum, I have never seen IRL. For decades, I spoke with almost 100 new people every day. Zero communication gap. Zero. If there was this massive divide, I sure as heck would have seen it. I hired, trained, and mentored teams of people while also building B2B relationships every single day. In other words, I wore several different hats with comfort.

    I dealt with human beings. I didn't deal with Fi and Fe people.
    It's unfortunate you don't realize people really can work well together on teams. Since it is so problematic for you to work with others, then stop complaining and be proactive. If I were in your shoes, I would work on my own as a consultant or start your own business so you could call your own shots. Maybe then, you would finally stop blaming your problems on others.

    By the way, there is a self-proclaimed ENFP who said he prefers Fe over Fi but he uses both. He is the founder of this company:

    www.insights.com

    This company vision incorporates both Fe and Fi.

    Our vision is to be the global provider of choice for learning solutions that inspire and transform individuals, teams and organisations. Insights has six core values which underpin all that we do. By understanding and living each of our core values we can build Insights as a value-based organisation. Working together as a team, while valuing and encouraging individual freedom. Making a difference through self-understanding, the development of individuals, teams, and organisations, and the practical application and development of Jungian psychology.

    Not only is he the founder of that company, he also is a strong supporter of increasing the number of types, which was inspired by Angelo Spoto's work. Let's hope you don't resort to slandering the guy merely because he's an ENFP who prefers Fe over Fi. Just because you choose not to incorporate both Fe and Fi doesn't mean others can't do it, and do it well.

  4. #134
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I, personally, will sacrifice happiness of the people in the short term in order to achieve long term happiness-and suffer the consequences of immediate anger and frustration on their part. NeTe can see a better future via change. The resultant long term happiness yields internal harmony-with myself.

    Interestingly-Ne forces me to feel the feelings of those close to me and those I have never met through extrapolation/connection. By taking your above rules and applying them to each Fi type, it might explain how Fi can develop such different values. SWEET!
    I have seen this in other ENFPs. They user their persuasive skills to get others to do things that are good for them (say like quitting smoking). They are confronting a bad situation in the hopes of long term gain. It is an amazing thing to watch - how anybody could be that persuasive and put themselves in the shoes of the other person.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Not true, I just don't know how many times I have to say it. I am not a sacrificial lamb and I quite openly (as tactfully and diplomatically as I know how) disagree with people. Like you have mentioned, sometimes it's not worth fighting it but when it is you do.

    Maybe I'm around abnormal Fe-users (particularly FJs) because that is simply not the case based on my personal experiences. FJs are I know are quite vocal when they disagree and will make the biggest scene you've ever had the pleasure to witness and will tear the place down if you try to stop them. I've made the scene before and will probably do so many times in my life. Not the best or most flattering Fe trait, but it exists.
    Well, I'm trying to describe something that I supposedly don't use very much and that I view from the outside. Maybe you can come up with a better description. I have known a lot of people who are strong Fe users (usually it is aux though) who very much are self sacrificing. They do things for others. They are concerned about the feelings of others. They make judgments about how others should behave and not behave. In general, they are simply highly others centric. I don't see this as feeble, weak or passive at all. In fact it seems highly action oriented.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Fi is allowed to be individually experienced--no two people experience it the same allegedly. Yet Fe is pretty blanketedly the same, no matter where you go, who you are, or what your background is. Fe will have the same reactions, reach the same conclusions, behave in the same way, feel the same way, think the same thing. Why rob Fe users of their unique expressions of Fe? If a Fe user says, this is not me, I feel like there's this assumption the Fe user is inaccurately gauging themselves.
    I can't speak to this really. I don't understand the perspective you are describing. It may be that I didn't read the stuff in the other threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Another thing, when a Fe user speaks about Fe, notice what aspect they emphasize. For example, I'm more into connections and relationships than harmony. Understand that each Fe users will hone on and identify with an aspect a Fe that strikes them. I admit that I feel good about my ability to analyze a relationship, but I'm not willing to STFU when I think something needs to be said. That has it's positives and negatives. Do you think IRL, FJs (I find it hard to lump TPs in with this) don't disagree with people and make it known? If I were a vegetarian and was given food with meat in it, I'd politely decline. I don't put myself out just to have harmony.
    Interesting points. So if it is all about connections and relationships - how do you go about doing that?

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    When the statement "personal values" is thrown about I feel like there are people constantly walking around drawing lines in the sand, refusing to do because a personal value is on the brink of being violated. Maybe I don't have very many personal values, so I don't feel like there's a constant assault on them. If I have a strongly held value, I'm not going to break it just to have peace. What kind of person does that make me...that means I don't stand for anything.

    This is what frustrates me about these Fe/Fi discussions, very often Fi users act like there's some moral vacuum with Fe. Not everything is a moral battleground. If my director asks me to print 10 copies of a report and I'm a fervent green activist, I've got a decision to make: my income or my value. First and foremost, I hope someone would be self-aware enough to not choose to be in an environment that would force them to constantly choose between their values and doing their job or living their life in a way they can be at peace with.

    Another thing, while you may feel your personal value is the most important thing in the world, that does not mean it in fact is or that it should be a priority for anyone else. If someone makes a completely opposite decision or evaluation based on their personal value it does not mean there is an absence of values because it doesn't agree with yours. This concept of personal value is so abstract and I think people hide in the grandioseness of it, never needing to explain it because it sounds so beautiful and lofty so it must be good.
    Forgive me if I'm over-interpreting but the way I read your train of thought is: "I have personal values too - why do the Fi users think they are so special?" "Who says their values are any better than anybody else's" "All these individual values lead to chaos" and "you're not explaining your grandiose values anyway, so I can't do anything with this". You seem to be discounting the other perspective. Isn't it fine that there are two different perspectives and that they are equally valid? I've said it before and I will say it again - there is no reason to think that either function is better than the other. They are just different. It also doesn't mean that we don't use both of them. We just prefer one over the other.

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  5. #135
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    Is this thread worth reading?

    I just skimmed through what's been written since post 101...

    (you can let me know your opinion in a rep, VM, or post. thanks )
    The Justice Fighter

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    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

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  6. #136
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    Are you kidding me, Orobas? I have had my share of disagreements with supposed Fi users but there is no where in hell that I chalked it up to just Fi.... if one does that, then they are really just seeing the world in black and white terms. There is more to life than just Fi and Fe. Sure, it may play a part but come on, there are so many other factors. My best is a FREAKING ISFP and we have never had communication problems. Also, my INFP mother and I understand each other pretty well even if we irritate each other sometimes. This is because I make a conscious effort to try to understand where others are coming from. I only notice the potential clash on the forums because WE OVEREMPHASIZE IT. I would say I conflict with other Fe users more sometimes. The person who confuses me the most is an ISFJ guy, to be honest.

  7. #137
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    I have come to the conclusion that the reason why I never have a problem with the Fi/Fe communication divide is because I’m such a damn good communicator. *brushes shoulders off*

  8. #138
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    *high five*

  9. #139
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    snip
    Jag, you are resorting to the pattern you often display. You attack the originator of an idea rather than the idea.

    1) The idea is presented-The idea in this case is that Fe differs from Fi.
    2) I presented a representative illustration that I have seen from my experience.
    3) Instead of critiquing the idea, you twist the experience and say only people in need of counseling would view the situation this way.
    4) You then move into personal attacks. Since my representative example-the other enfp, has had similar experiences, and made similar observations-she is personally attacked as needing counseling.

    This makes it difficult to debate ideas as they keep twisting into a discussion of me as an individual rather than the topic at hand. Since we do not agree on an idea-there is something wrong with me as a person. You also then extrapolate the discussion about the topic into my insulting other people-the ENFP you mention above. I noted you did this to Highlander as well earlier. When I debate ideas they are separate from the person, thus I would never insult the ENFP you mention-rather I would delightfully engage him in a discussion. In the same way I would never insult you, but rather consider your ideas, then counter with my own understanding and observations.

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    This is a very good Ni hunt for the underlying rules of Fi ^^

    I value the happiness of others a great deal-to the point of being a people pleaser.

    I suspect since I strongly mirror the pain of those around me-their pain becomes my internal feelings- thus I seek to minimize that internal pain, by helping the other people or finding ways to make their existence happier.

    Over a lifetime, this yields personal values focused on helping others be happier and minimizing the pain and unhappiness of others.

    I, personally, will sacrifice happiness of the people in the short term in order to achieve long term happiness-and suffer the consequences of immediate anger and frustration on their part. NeTe can see a better future via change. The resultant long term happiness yields internal harmony-with myself.

    Interestingly-Ne forces me to feel the feelings of those close to me and those I have never met through extrapolation/connection. By taking your above rules and applying them to each Fi type, it might explain how Fi can develop such different values. SWEET!

    I dont get Fi "people pleaser". Most of the time it seems like they try to help/please assholes. I dont get it and it honestly drives me nuts and pushes me away from Fi people in general. Asshole is an Fe judgement of rude, inconsiderate people. Not really "socially right", but someone who is just rude to others and could careless about someone else.

    Makes me question if Fi can really feel Ti/Fe users. I begin to doubt that they have a clue as to what pain/hurt we feel.
    Im out, its been fun

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