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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #101
    Ginkgo
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    "" is right.

  2. #102
    Senior Member Array Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    There were some NFPs over in the Kanye West thread saying they totally understand him and would do what he did. CLEARLY this must be an Fi/Fe issue.

    It could be a risk to dine in public with that guy. He might pee on the floor, just to make a point.
    From this hour I ordain myself loos’d of limits and imaginary lines.

  3. #103
    Senior Member Array IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    For example, a friend of mine recently told me she's having trouble sustaining a mentor relationship with someone she asked to mentor her. My mind immediately went to crunching on the nature of mentor/mentee relationship, why is it weakening, what can be done to strengthen it, what kind of communications between her and her mentor could occur to revitalize the relationship. Yes, secondary thoughts were why is she feeling this way, what is frustrating her about this, why is it important to her, but when I say secondary, I mean within the length of a conversation. So then that's another point of frustration for me, to say that Fe doesn't think individual or contextual because for me it tends to happen within minutes.
    this is interesting. as an Fi user, i'll be prone to this: [real life example] male at work is having relationship problems with his wife. as opposed to the Fe frame of thought, of, "well how can we fix this marriage problem?" i get stuck on the individual. "why do you feel this way?" "what do you wish you were doing instead?" "are you not happy?" etc. when it comes to their relationship, my "help" made the situation worse. his focused leaned away from the marriage and wife's needs, and more on his own. Fe is an incredibly viable tool!


    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I can get real with you and say that there is often a conflict with me when I'm an individual person, with my own individual interests and desires, and when I'm an African-American woman who's part of the larger black community. How do you articulate when those things conflict and how you decide how you're going to align yourself (sorry I don't opt out...it's the Jay in me) or how you move between the two or several? Sometimes it's not about me, and sometimes it is about me. Maybe it is simpler for a Fi user, who doesn't feel as much conflict between their group identity and their individual one because it's clear the individual identity will usually win. Personally, both are very important to me and I don't think my values are shadier because I hold a group identity on par with an individual one.
    i wouldn't say it's simpler. it's more as though Fi doesn't think in terms of group and individual... but rather general values.

    however, this makes my understanding of the enneagram very interesting. (change of subject, but perhaps enlightening?)
    a lot of Fi users tend to be in the range of enneagram 3, 4, and 5. and i suppose it is because of this lack of group identity, though unknowingly developed, we become more obsessed with image, identity and knowledge. we're even more dependent on building up our own individual identity. especially in the case of the 4, who often suffers identity crises and alienation. interesting...

    going back to your story though... i seriously doubt the Fe processes are simpler. just as the Fi processes aren't simple. and each one deserves their individual merit. each has it's stereotype. Fi's are selfish, Fe's are sheep. i don't think either is true. and it is because people over simplify each one's merits. both ultimately want the same things, which is to do the right thing, but achieve them in different ways with different outcomes. and being an Fe user, most will ultimately have to choose between one or another, too. for example, i was at work talking with an ISFJ and my female manager (whom i've yet to type correctly, but i'm leaning in the INxx realm...) i don't recall the exact conversation... but eventually my female manager sort of cut me down in a way, with her words. the ISFJ would have had to choose between the "work group" consensus and then my own individual feelings or "friend group." she ultimately chose to stand in as my guardian in the situation. but she was subtle as well... (perhaps aligning with the "work group" as well, but i don't know for certain.) but i felt for sure, that sense of standing up for me. and this isn't my only example of an Fe doing this that i have. my absolute two favorite coworkers are both ISFJ's, and i've seen them both do this sort of graceful saving. unlike an Fe user (subtle and tact) i'm a bit more blunt and brash about the things i believe in, and would love to learn more from an Fe user on the matter. for example, if a coworker was being talked down to by my boss, i would have to either A. speak up and tell my boss she's not being very nice, or B. just not say anything at all, because doing so would probably lead me to losing my job as i have no tact when it comes to standing up for someone else. Fe has learned a wonderful balance here. or rather, is naturally gifted in this arena.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  4. #104
    Administrator Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    This just occurred to me. From a Fe perspective when I hear the word "group" I believe my baseline picture of a group or is way different than yours. Maybe we should clarify this. When I re-read the OP and hear words like "groupthink" and "conformity" I get confused about how that differs from agreeing with someone or holding similar beliefs. If someone believed similarly to you and enough of you got together would it be groupthink anymore or just the right thing to do?

    I checked out wiki to find out exactly a group is and maybe some ideas on why I'm not getting this at all. This is helpful, at least for me.

    When I think of group, the focus for me is not a bunch of faceless, nameless hunks of flesh amassed together, my interest is focused on the shared interests, values, and ties. So what rankles me about these threads is that when I personally tell people what my focus is--the ties between people--it gets reinterpreted as disregard towards the individuals or tripping over social ritual. I suppose this is annoying as well for other Fe-users or maybe just FJs, IDK. I admit, the individual tends to blur a bit, but ultimately there is no tie or bond if there are no anchoring points. The anchoring points (the individuals) get a significant amount of attention too, especially when I'm one of them! And then when you think about the ties and connectors themselves: what are they, why are they important, just so many things to look at it even further annoys me when there is no thought into why I/a Fe user does what I do or just goes along with what I'm told to do when I feel like it's way more complicated than that.
    I like the wikipedia definition. Maybe somebody who prefers Fe just thinks more about the group - these shared values, interests, and beliefs - than someone who prefers Fi. The re-interpretation part sounds like the very misunderstanding or conflict between people who have different preferences. I think that someone who prefers Fe may have a tendency to focus much more on what other people feel/think than someone who prefers Fi. My decision process is more centered around what the right thing is to do - not how others may perceive it. If this cognitive function stuff is valid, it means these preferences do matter in our process of making decisions. It's sort of like a lens or filter right? I think to have strong preferences means that we have blind spots. Good decisions consider multiple perspectives.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    When I think of a group, my immediate frame of reference is the primary group. Feel free to correct me, but I think when people think of Fe, they immediately think of the secondary group.
    Interesting question - the primary group would be the one that's important it seems.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    highlander, just for the purposes of what you're saying here let's say generally for Fe the secondary group is the primary group. Do you think that may lead to a high level of internal wrangling and dissonance with those values are at odds? What do you think the decision points are for conflicts between two primary groups (a SO and the family) with a Fe user or between a primary and a secondary group?

    I can get real with you and say that there is often a conflict with me when I'm an individual person, with my own individual interests and desires, and when I'm an African-American woman who's part of the larger black community. How do you articulate when those things conflict and how you decide how you're going to align yourself (sorry I don't opt out...it's the Jay in me) or how you move between the two or several? Sometimes it's not about me, and sometimes it is about me. Maybe it is simpler for a Fi user, who doesn't feel as much conflict between their group identity and their individual one because it's clear the individual identity will usually win. Personally, both are very important to me and I don't think my values are shadier because I hold a group identity on par with an individual one.
    These are really interesting points. I'm not sure I know but do think these things might be simpler for an Fi user because they wouldn't feel these conflicts as much.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I know you're not knocking the Fe process, but I can't help but feel like you've oversimplified it while valorizing the subjective process and I want to address this.
    I think you're right - I did valorize the subjective process in the OP. I'm a little embarrassed by what I wrote there. I was obviously feeling some emotions.

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  5. #105
    not to be trusted Array miss fortune's Avatar
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    *pouts*

    apparently I'm horrible and overbearing I guess... even though I really don't care about conforming or fashion or anything because it requires more of an attention span than I posess

    and I'm amused to read that no Fe user ever "finally got what Fi is" on the forum, when I actually DID finally get it- and explain it back as well- in a thread
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #106
    Plumage and Moult Array proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I like the wikipedia definition. Maybe somebody who prefers Fe just thinks more about the group - these shared values, interests, and beliefs - than someone who prefers Fi. The re-interpretation part sounds like the very misunderstanding or conflict between people who have different preferences. I think that someone who prefers Fe may have a tendency to focus much more on what other people feel/think than someone who prefers Fi. My decision process is more centered around what the right thing is to do - not how others may perceive it. If this cognitive function stuff is valid, it means these preferences do matter in our process of making decisions. It's sort of like a lens or filter right? I think to have strong preferences means that we have blind spots. Good decisions consider multiple perspectives.
    I guess I see this as part of the miscommunication. Why are you juxtaposing "the right thing to do" (Fi) against "what other people think" (Fe)? That's a false dichotomy.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I like the wikipedia definition. Maybe somebody who prefers Fe just thinks more about the group - these shared values, interests, and beliefs - than someone who prefers Fi. The re-interpretation part sounds like the very misunderstanding or conflict between people who have different preferences. I think that someone who prefers Fe may have a tendency to focus much more on what other people feel/think than someone who prefers Fi. My decision process is more centered around what the right thing is to do - not how others may perceive it. If this cognitive function stuff is valid, it means these preferences do matter in our process of making decisions. It's sort of like a lens or filter right? I think to have strong preferences means that we have blind spots. Good decisions consider multiple perspectives.
    I don't think Fe automatically means you worry what other people will think of you. It's just that you think of others, period. I don't think my ENFJ bff from high school or my ENFJ younger sister spend a great deal of time obsessing about how they appear to others in the way one might think of...it's just that as Fe doms they are inclined to think of solutions which benefit the entire family or the entire group, and that is their natural instinct. My ENFJ sister will hardly ever take sides in family squabbles and sees herself as some sort of neutral referee nudging people into harmony...I also think she's a 9w8 (the benevolent dictator! lol) and that also affects her behavior, not just Fe dominance, because my ENFJ bff is a bit different...for her it's just always come naturally to have a buttload of friends and people just plain like her, she has the ENFJ charisma. That's why I always argue with people who think I'm ENFJ. I'm like...yeah, no...I have a lot in common with my ENFJ sister and bff...but I see the difference, too, I'm either INFJ or ENFP.



    Interesting question - the primary group would be the one that's important it seems.
    This is very true. In any event, the Fe user may not automatically mesh to their surrounding "group" and can have strong convictions of morality or ethics just like an Fi user ... they aren't as wishy-washy and conformist as all that, otherwise you'd see a lot more SFJs abandoning their fundamentalist Christian upbringing in the South when they went away to college or what have you. It's pretty obvious to me who my old SFJ friends are from high school because when I see them on facebook they are DOGGEDLY determined to keep their primary group beliefs in face of the changing world. Fe can have just as much stubborn tenacity as Fi, though maybe it's more common with Si/Fe than Ni/Fe?

  8. #108
    Administrator Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I guess I see this as part of the miscommunication. Why are you juxtaposing "the right thing to do" (Fi) against "what other people think" (Fe)? That's a false dichotomy.
    I'm probably not using the right words. Maybe it's better to say I would lean towards leveraging personal values and conscience vs shared values or conventions. I would tend to not sacrifice my personal values to avoid offending someone. The risk is that you offend someone - which for example I seem to have done with Jaguar.

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  9. #109
    Plumage and Moult Array proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I'm probably not using the right words. Maybe it's better to say I would lean towards leveraging personal values and conscience vs shared values or conventions. I would tend to not sacrifice my personal values to avoid offending someone. The risk is that you offend someone - which for example I seem to have done with Jaguar.
    OK, I see what you're saying. I think I would say this though: personal values and conscience (Fi) and shared values and consensus (Fe). Both can go horrifically wrong and both can go beautifully right. If the personal value is corrupt, how does it get corrected? If the shared value is corrupt, how does it get corrected?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  10. #110
    Administrator Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    OK, I see what you're saying. I think I would say this though: personal values and conscience (Fi) and shared values and consensus (Fe). Both can go horrifically wrong and both can go beautifully right. If the personal value is corrupt, how does it get corrected? If the shared value is corrupt, how does it get corrected?
    Funny, I don't equate Fe with consensus but maybe I should think about that more.

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