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  1. #1
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Default The accuracy of the MBTI system

    Hello. Haven't been on in a few months. While I'm sure none to few of you care at all, here's why.

    I do not trust this system anymore (Though I can't stop analysing with it Aaargh! Seriously, I need to stop, it's driving me crazy.).

    The first problem with the MBTI system that I no longer trust is the function order. Through studying myself and various characters and people over the time I spent here, I've noticed that it is very common for people to not fit their function order or having supposedly contradicting functions. And one of the most common instances of this is when people have both Xx and Xy functions. I, for example, can not decide whether I am INTP or INFP. I detatch myself, analyse, search for things I've missed, strive for accuracy and truth, fit everything into logical systems, make decisions on a rational basis follow areas of technical interest with little regard to it's practicality etc. But also, I feel intensely, get attatched to people and care deeply about them, think of the world as full of beauty, have strong morals, like to express my emotions artistically, etc. The thing is, these elements of Ti and Fi are supposed to contradict each other and not appear in the same person, but they have hardly any contradiction at all. A fictional example is the character of Daria from Daria. Does it appear to you that a person could not retain the qualities mentioned in my above description? And as a nother example, Ne and Se. If someone enjoys coming up with crazy ideas and concepts, why does that mean they can't also enjoy exciting physical activities and experiences and notice things around them? A few examples of this in fiction are Jack Sparrow from Pirates of the Carribean and Kelso from That 70's show.

    Another thing is that these functions are supposed to be single aspects of ourselves, and yet in descriptions of them, and typing people with them, not only do people frequently disagree on the definitions (leading me to believe that they are poorly defined in the first place) but often appear very multi-faceted. For example, going by what I have most recently learned, Te is a function that judges something's worth based on what it is told (as opposed to Ti which goes into thought to verify the logicality (word?) of it), and uses that knowledge to make quick decisions. Yet somehow this also means that Te users (in some cases and something a Ti user cannot do at all for some reason) work hard and efficiently to reach recognisable goals and have a strong desire to make everything efficient and organised (seriously, what does that have to do with it?). They also seem to share some aspects with other functions, and as an example, both Ti and Te want things to be logically correct (or what they believe to be logically correct). If someone appears to have one function but also another function, the typer may say that one of them is just another function behaving in the same way. This is just one example, but it can be applied to most or all of the functions as they are given. And another thing. After many threads, I still don't understand precisely what Ni is, since all I get is hundreds of disagreeing pseudological answers.

    Also, sorry if this doesn't make sense. I am awful at explaining what I mean. It makes sense in my head but I tend to choose the wrong words or make mistakes when putting it down in reality.

    My point is, is this system really as accurate and definite and comprehensive as we make out here? Are there things that haven't been considered? I want to know what you think about this. Maybe all these holes have a rational explanation. Or maybe MBTI is an insufficient way of explaining people. For other people with functions that do not fit in a type precisely, what do you have to say in that regard?
    JiNe
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    "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

    "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

  2. #2
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Since it doesn't serves as adequate language for the psyche, your mind should inevitably discard it.

    I agree with the lack of definiteness, but this could possibly be due to my plain ignorance of data. Eh, in what way does MBTI proclaim that Ti and Fi are in opposition?

  3. #3
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    Since it doesn't serves as adequate language for the psyche, your mind should inevitably discard it.

    I agree with the lack of definiteness, but this could possibly be due to my plain ignorance of data. Eh, in what way does MBTI proclaim that Ti and Fi are in opposition?
    By this I mean that it says that if someone is of a type that uses Ti as one of their 4 dominant functions, they cannot use Fi as one of their 4 dominant functions. In my case it would seem that Ti is probably my dominant but that my Fi is close to my Ne (above or below varies), which is totally impossible under the system as it stands.

    EDIT: Also, despite the fact that I doubt the system's credibility, I find it very difficult to avoid analysing with it. It's like an addiction, and not a particularly pleasant one, where I try and fit everyone and every action or thought into some sort of logical system, the one I have available being MBTI. It's actually very distracting from anything else.
    JiNe
    Ti | Fi | Ne | Si | Te | Ni | Fe | Se
    Enneagram: 5w4 sx/sp

    "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

    "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

  4. #4
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    By this I mean that it says that if someone is of a type that uses Ti as one of their 4 dominant functions, they cannot use Fi as one of their 4 dominant functions. In my case it would seem that Ti is probably my dominant but that my Fi is close to my Ne (above or below varies), which is totally impossible under the system as it stands.
    You don't think it is Fe instead?

    EDIT: Also, despite the fact that I doubt the system's credibility, I find it very difficult to avoid analysing with it. It's like an addiction, and not a particularly pleasant one, where I try and fit everyone and every action or thought into some sort of logical system, the one I have available being MBTI. It's actually very distracting from anything else.
    Because it is available? Have you thought of ways to remedy yourself?

  5. #5
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    You don't think it is Fe instead?
    Possibly, but then, Fe is only the INTPs inferior, and by all means should not be very strong anyway. Also, it seems far closer to Fi. I fit the Fe description very little, less, actually, than what I hear from many Fi users (ie. they tend to mention more of a desire to be socially accepted and adjust to situations to please people, things I rarely do). And this returns to another point I made earlier, that if a type has a function they cannot have, people will substitute another possible function, in this case being that you are saying since I can't have Fi it must be Fe.


    Because it is available? Have you thought of ways to remedy yourself?
    I've tried telling myself to stop every time I think about it, and that sorta works, but it's very tiresome (because I think about it CONSTANTLY) and I often forget to restrict it. I've heard hypnotherapy could help but is expensive.
    JiNe
    Ti | Fi | Ne | Si | Te | Ni | Fe | Se
    Enneagram: 5w4 sx/sp

    "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

    "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

  6. #6
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    Possibly, but then, Fe is only the INTPs inferior, and by all means should not be very strong anyway. Also, it seems far closer to Fi. I fit the Fe description very little, less, actually, than what I hear from many Fi users (ie. they tend to mention more of a desire to be socially accepted and adjust to situations to please people, things I rarely do). And this returns to another point I made earlier, that if a type has a function they cannot have, people will substitute another possible function, in this case being that you are saying since I can't have Fi it must be Fe.
    Yep, I've had a similar problem but I realized Fe in me so I wasn't complaining.

    What about Te instead of Ti?




    I've tried telling myself to stop every time I think about it, and that sorta works, but it's very tiresome (because I think about it CONSTANTLY) and I often forget to restrict it. I've heard hypnotherapy could help but is expensive.
    How much does it harm you? in what way?

  7. #7
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    Yep, I've had a similar problem but I realized Fe in me so I wasn't complaining.

    What about Te instead of Ti?
    Also thought of that with similar results. I don't like to trust information I'm given and I run over it in my head to try and figure out it's accuracy (although accuracy checking tends to be something Te users do as well). I get annoyed at people who say things without credible sources (like my EXTJ teacher, whom I often argued with) or reasonable logic. I constantly reconsider things. I am awful at rote things and lose attention if somthing doesn't interest me. I search for understanding ans spend much time in thought. And so on and so on. Doesn't seem to fit. Also, Te in INFPs is very low, though I guess I could be an ENFP or ESTJ (No way my Ne is lower than 3rd, but I don't really relate to ESTJs much at all). But that's sort of besides the point anyway, because I do not relate to Te very much at all. I suppose I have a few aspects of organisation, but that seems very selective, as my bookcase is very neat and organised but my room is messy as hell. And as I said I do not understand why Te specifically means you like organisation. Hm... that was a long rant.

    How much does it harm you? in what way?
    It just bugs me because I think about it so much and I don't like doing so anymore. I'd rather just get on with other things.
    JiNe
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    Enneagram: 5w4 sx/sp

    "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

    "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

  8. #8
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Nobody has anything to say?
    JiNe
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    "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

    "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

  9. #9
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    Yeah, I've said a lot about it, all over the board, about how I've rejected function theory and have just typed myself by the four dichotomies more or less Keirsey style.

    Too many similar behaviors blamed upon seemingly endless combinations of functions, disagreements over what Fe vs. Fi even is, and the absolute preposterousness of not being able to base it upon observable behavior, and the outright insanity of "function order" stacking.

    I just don't feel like talking about it anymore.

  10. #10
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I'm in the same boat with overthinking (not just for my own sake, but out of the need to make sense of it in general). I must have Fi or Fe though, because I sympathize quite a bit. As for your concern about Fi, I know that Lenore Thomson speaks about Ti doms being able to draw upon Fi as a "right brain alternative" (and vice versa). Other theories may not allow that freedom, and that's where we get these stereotypes that pigeonhole people. She covers her bases though, and makes room for extreme Tis who don't know anything about Fi (or Fe) - she attributes that to lack of extroverted perception (basically being self absorbed and not truly learning about the external world enough) - but should that really be the case for everyone? I doubt it. Just think of this shit in terms of preference. Maybe that will help (btw, I need to follow my own advice too. Just thinking out loud here).

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