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  1. #41
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robopop View Post
    The function order is like that for a reason(according to the theory), a person has Ji, Je, Pe, and Pi to varying degrees, you need Je and Pe to balance out the introverted attitudes of Ji and Pi, if you were pure 100% introvert(or extrovert) you'd likely be in a mental hospital. Ti and Fi contradict each other on the basis of your internal values, it seems you don't understand what Ti and Fi means,
    Seems you don't either. Ne/Se is what balances Ti/Fi. OP already stated he has Ne and he didn't say anything about being an emotionless droid. Given your avi, it's funny you should choose those words.
    Ti and Fi do not contradict each other at all - they operate in different domains. Not everyone is as comfortable with both, but some people are. Instead of rigidly telling people what they can and cannot do or be, try broadening your mind a bit.

    I think Orangeappled's post was very informative and the best post in the thread thus far
    And yet you seemed to miss her point entirely:
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I could say my MBTI type is INTP, because I test that more than half the time, but my Jungian type is definitely Fi.
    ...
    I tend to see "opposing" functions very differently....I imagine it could be more natural for me, as Fi-dom, to use Ti than Te, simply because the orientation is preferred. Te seems the more opposed function to Fi, and irks me far more when I encounter it in others.
    I feel the same way about Fe vs. Fi. I find the former mostly repellent, the latter I can comfortably slip into when appropriate, though Ti is unquestionably dominant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #42
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    Function order does have it's purpose. You wouldn't want Ti-Fe right next to each other, or use them both as dominants because you'd never get anything done (a.k.a. me). There is something to be said about having a little bit of order. As long as opposites aren't paired together I think stacking is malleable.

  3. #43
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I'm curious how different Ti doms come to identify with Fi. Mine has a lot of baggage with it. I mean, I kind of had a breakthrough experience (I'll leave it at that), but also a lot of humility to go along with it. Soon after this was my first encounter with MBTI, and I typed as an INFP back then. That was almost 15 years ago, so I wouldn't say I'm very "half assed" about it.

  4. #44
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    It is in my way at this point in my life. I'm trying to get past caring right now, just so I can focus on logical consistency in every aspect of life.

  5. #45
    Reptilian Snuggletron's Avatar
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    seems like Fi-users do that more often too (myself included). I think it's just because Ti and Fi are cooler than Fe and Te.

    come on people, admit it.

  6. #46
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    Hello. Haven't been on in a few months. While I'm sure none to few of you care at all, here's why.

    I do not trust this system anymore (Though I can't stop analysing with it Aaargh! Seriously, I need to stop, it's driving me crazy.).

    The first problem with the MBTI system that I no longer trust is the function order. Through studying myself and various characters and people over the time I spent here, I've noticed that it is very common for people to not fit their function order or having supposedly contradicting functions. And one of the most common instances of this is when people have both Xx and Xy functions. I, for example, can not decide whether I am INTP or INFP. I detatch myself, analyse, search for things I've missed, strive for accuracy and truth, fit everything into logical systems, make decisions on a rational basis follow areas of technical interest with little regard to it's practicality etc. But also, I feel intensely, get attatched to people and care deeply about them, think of the world as full of beauty, have strong morals, like to express my emotions artistically, etc. The thing is, these elements of Ti and Fi are supposed to contradict each other and not appear in the same person, but they have hardly any contradiction at all. A fictional example is the character of Daria from Daria. Does it appear to you that a person could not retain the qualities mentioned in my above description? And as a nother example, Ne and Se. If someone enjoys coming up with crazy ideas and concepts, why does that mean they can't also enjoy exciting physical activities and experiences and notice things around them? A few examples of this in fiction are Jack Sparrow from Pirates of the Carribean and Kelso from That 70's show.

    Another thing is that these functions are supposed to be single aspects of ourselves, and yet in descriptions of them, and typing people with them, not only do people frequently disagree on the definitions (leading me to believe that they are poorly defined in the first place) but often appear very multi-faceted. For example, going by what I have most recently learned, Te is a function that judges something's worth based on what it is told (as opposed to Ti which goes into thought to verify the logicality (word?) of it), and uses that knowledge to make quick decisions. Yet somehow this also means that Te users (in some cases and something a Ti user cannot do at all for some reason) work hard and efficiently to reach recognisable goals and have a strong desire to make everything efficient and organised (seriously, what does that have to do with it?). They also seem to share some aspects with other functions, and as an example, both Ti and Te want things to be logically correct (or what they believe to be logically correct). If someone appears to have one function but also another function, the typer may say that one of them is just another function behaving in the same way. This is just one example, but it can be applied to most or all of the functions as they are given. And another thing. After many threads, I still don't understand precisely what Ni is, since all I get is hundreds of disagreeing pseudological answers.

    Also, sorry if this doesn't make sense. I am awful at explaining what I mean. It makes sense in my head but I tend to choose the wrong words or make mistakes when putting it down in reality.

    My point is, is this system really as accurate and definite and comprehensive as we make out here? Are there things that haven't been considered? I want to know what you think about this. Maybe all these holes have a rational explanation. Or maybe MBTI is an insufficient way of explaining people. For other people with functions that do not fit in a type precisely, what do you have to say in that regard?
    this is all stuff that's crossed my mind before. i went through a phase where i just discarded everything mbti. but one day i became curious again... and here are my thoughts since:

    using myself as an example, i'm an ISFP. however... to some i may appear to be an ESFP, ISFJ, ISTP, and who knows what else. i think part of being an intelligent human being and a dynamic human being, and ever growing and maturing and becoming wiser human being, is rounding out the functions and adaptability. otherwise, we're stagnant, stubborn, immature and ignorant.

    i can think of ways in which i use Ti, Si, Fe and Ne. but ultimately, i see now that i am still at a core ISFP. without much thought or control, i'm ultimately Fi and often find myself the happiest when also using Se with Ni running in the background. this is where i find the most happiness, peace, independence... it's my core me.

    in regards to Ti... well sometimes i want to figure out how things work or happen. i'm building and constructing models in my own mind, trying to figure out the mechanics and every minute detail. it's a combination of Ti with Se, which is very ISTP. but i'm not consistently logical. i'm often very reactive upon my emotions, and it's difficult to control.

    also, through the Fi value system, i've come to decide Fe characteristics of being selfless vs. selfish are very important. i adjust myself to make others feel more comfortable, and go out of my way for others when i'm able.

    and through repetitive cycles of messing up, impulsiveness, being late, fines for late bills, bad grades in school, and in general being a f*ck up and then being depressed about these issues, i've learned through use of Fi feeling insecure because of Se impulsiveness for life, to develop Si. i'm now very organized and weigh out my decisions before acting.

    also, through retreating to my mind, i've developed a little bit of Ne. i love feeling as though i'm living in a fantasy world of magic, and will create worlds around myself. imagination and creating meanings.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
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  7. #47
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    Thank you all for your responses. Grr... I don't like it when something I've been studying for a long time turns out to be so flawed and incomprehensive. For the longest time it seemed a near perfect system, but the deeper you get, the bigger the holes look. And you're right, I need something more interesting to focus on. I'm going to Uni next year and currently I am looking to go into game programming and design. I'm not even entirely sure I will enjoy it, since I can't really decide what I feel passionate about at the moment, but hopefully, it will be something else to get myself lost in.
    You confuse me. Are we talking about specific MBTI system? A system that utilizes 8 functions? or just the idea of "functions"?

    If the latter, then the reasoning is as follows. The first question that must be asked is "Do people have preferences?" in which the answer is obviously yes(otherwise people would be behaving similarly). The next question is "Are preferences shaped by nature alone, nurture alone or by both"? "Nature alone" is nope, because we have not always known things and knowing things predict preference("touching fire is good"). "Nurture alone" is also nope because it breaks the entire concept of genetics (temperaments are passed on). Therefore answer is both. The next question is centered on identifying "temperament"(natural personality or personality when your a baby). Origins is genetics but "how are our (subconscious/unconscious/conscious)decisions structured?" Here is when the idea of functions composing of Introversion, Extroversion, Intuition, Sensation, Feeling and Thinking is introduced based on Jung's Observation. You can read his reasoning on his book, but my personal reason behind relying on such a system is simply because of the relationship between how I understand my *subconscious* and his own descriptions of functions. (For example, being nurtured in a -SFJ environment, there is just no way for me to stay disinclined towards value-oriented expressions unless I have some naturally opposing psychology, a psychology relating to my often considered "twisted logic", which I contribute to being an Introverted Thinker.) In other words, "It's a great answer". (Not to say it is the only valid hypothesis).

    Some History:

    Keirsey and Lenore Thomson and some others stopped at the question of defining personality in that they believe that personality is completely based on nurture, which is false, which, of course, lessens their own system's credibility. Keirsey adapted Briggs' four letter system but did not acknowledge the origins of the system which is Jung's function theory. (He diverted towards some phlegmatic bullshit.) I think he also changed his position between his "Please Understand Me"(book) and his "Please Understand Me II"(book) wherein his first book praised the idea of "temperament" and the latter did not recognize it. And Thomson, whilst proclaiming that Jung was not talking about innate functions, creates a separate 8 function model that, like Keirsey, adheres to nurture-based personality.

    -----

    If the middle, then its a matter of organization. If you think you have both Fi and Ti, then it ends with a semantic argument. Would you please define all judging functions? If you have the correct definitions, then all 8 function models that states opposing activity between Fi and Ti should be disproved.

    --

    If the former, then its also a matter of organization in which case I'd ask you to define all judging functions. If you have the correct definitions, then either MBTI is flawed or your case is abnormal.

    -----

    The only problem I can see with this sort of knowledge is if the holder is incapable. It's not a problem if it allows mental exercise.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Seems you don't either. Ne/Se is what balances Ti/Fi. OP already stated he has Ne and he didn't say anything about being an emotionless droid. Given your avi, it's funny you should choose those words.
    You of course need Je and Pi too, a person has all functions, sensing, intuition, thinking, and feeling. And he didn't say anything about being an emotionless droid but he did imply that Ti somehow contradicts a person having deep emotions/caring for other people, I wanted to clarify that being Ti dom does not make one uncaring.

    Ti and Fi do not contradict each other at all - they operate in different domains. Not everyone is as comfortable with both, but some people are. Instead of rigidly telling people what they can and cannot do or be, try broadening your mind a bit.
    Let me clarify, according to my understanding of jungian typology they do contradict each other, I'm just going by the theory, and I'm not telling anyone what they can and can't be, stop putting words in my mouth. I'm not here to argue with anyone.

    And yet you seemed to miss her point entirely:

    I feel the same way about Fe vs. Fi. I find the former mostly repellent, the latter I can comfortably slip into when appropriate, though Ti is unquestionably dominant.
    Hmmm......you quoted what she said out of context to what I was referring to, I referring to what she said about the difference between skill sets and cognitive functions. I mentioned nothing about her opinion of function order.
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  9. #49
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I'm curious how different Ti doms come to identify with Fi. Mine has a lot of baggage with it. I mean, I kind of had a breakthrough experience (I'll leave it at that), but also a lot of humility to go along with it. Soon after this was my first encounter with MBTI, and I typed as an INFP back then. That was almost 15 years ago, so I wouldn't say I'm very "half assed" about it.
    Fucking site keeps going down. I already typed this out!

    Ok, so give that there might be a typical pattern for function development (and that's born out neither by theory nor empirical data) these are the factors that Hartzler & Hartzler say might lead to atypical function development:

    During childhood (3-12 yrs)
    1. There was negative feeedback when the dominant was used
    2. Family life called upon a nonpreferred function to be used in order to survive (eg an alcohoic / abusive parent / sibling)
    3. There was positive feeback for using nonpreferred functions

    Later in life
    4. Chosen jobs required extensive use of nonpreferred functions
    5. Parenting skills demanded use of nonpreferred functions
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    To the OP, I'm sorry if I offended you(your understanding) or came off too blunt, I just wanted to be informative and helpful(but probably wasn't). The reason I questioned your understanding of Ti was because of this:

    I feel intensely, get attatched to people and care deeply about them, think of the world as full of beauty, have strong morals, like to express my emotions artistically, etc. The thing is, these elements of Ti and Fi are supposed to contradict each other and not appear in the same person, but they have hardly any contradiction at all.
    The thing is, emotions are a physiological response, being a Ti dom does not mean you can't care for other people, feel deeply/intensely, see beauty in the world, ect. Being Ti means you evaluate information(perceived by Ne or Se) according to your internally derived impersonal principles. Which gets to my point about why I think Ti contradicts Fi, Ti tries as much as possible to get rid of personal bias/personal values/feelings when coming to it's deductive conclusions, in this way it goes extremely well with Fe because Fe also will put aside the individual's personal feelings in support of the communal feelings/ethics it feels connected to.

    That's why Fe will find Fi selfish sometimes, while Fe might look quite shallow to Fi. The Fi mindset from what I understand of it places the utmost importance on one's individual personal values/feelings/ethics. I think alot of the confusion about jungian typology comes from treating cognitive functions as these skills/abilities that you can use and consciously turn on and off, in the context of jungian typology, they're more than that, it's your unconscious way of looking at and evaluating the world/taking in information. I am not saying this model is the right, true proven one, but this is from my personal understanding of the subject at hand.
    Reserved Calm Unstructured Egocentric Inquisitive Clown

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