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  1. #31
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    I agree with the general sentiment of this thread. I totally 100% identify with the Keirsey definition of ENFP. And any general descriptions of ENFP... totally me.

    If I start to analyze function order/preference and stuff, it doesn't fit, and doubt starts coming in. I over think it to the point that I think it actually affects my behavior in real life because my mind is in this meta state a lot.

    I took a few months away from the forum and it helped a lot. I'm done over thinking function order. I appreciate each function as a singular thing on its own but I am not that interested in the ordering.

    Just to throw this out there though... another possible explanation is just that you are really intelligent and use a wide range of functions well. That's a loophole I allowed myself before I decided I just didn't care.

  2. #32
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    Just to throw this out there though... another possible explanation is just that you are really intelligent and use a wide range of functions well. That's a loophole I allowed myself before I decided I just didn't care.
    I wouldn't really say that's the case. To be perfectly honest, I don't think I use any function with particular efficiency. I have Ne randomness and thought patterns, but rarely produce good ideas. I have Fi preference but am awful at sympathising and understanding people, I have a Ti desire to look into and solve everything and reach the truth, but I always miss things or draw the wrong conclusions if I draw any at all. And so on for the other functions.

    I think it's more my preference.
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  3. #33
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    I wouldn't really say that's the case. To be perfectly honest, I don't think I use any function with particular efficiency. I have Ne randomness and thought patterns, but rarely produce good ideas. I have Fi preference but am awful at sympathising and understanding people, I have a Ti desire to look into and solve everything and reach the truth, but I always miss things or draw the wrong conclusions if I draw any at all. And so on for the other functions.

    I think it's more my preference.
    That's part of your problem. You think that dominance in a function equals excellence. Not the case. Nes can be complete idiots and a Fi doesn't mean you have an understanding of anyone, even yourself.

  4. #34
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    I won't argue with you, but I will say that I do not trust directive styles as a reliable method of typing at all. I prefer to go by functions, the basis on which whomever made them tried to fit directive styles with IMO varying success. And Daria is anything but Te.
    Well, it is a make-believe character, so the writers can mix up different personality traits in any way possible, and there's no way to determine what the real preference is. After all; there's no "ego". So the "directiveness" is just what happened to strike me. (Never even watched it enough to gather how she really thinks). And seeing people say that they sense a lot of Fi while seeming to contradict INTP, would also go along with IxTJ.

    Still, in what way is she "anything but Te"? (Never heard it from that angle before).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    The function preference orders presented by MBTI are not the only orders people have. Plenty of people fall outside the realm of the 16 types. The system itself was meant to be a rough tool to be applicable to most people. While the dichotomies of the functions are sound, the dichotomies of MBTI are not because they claim to typify more than what their foundation has to offer.

    Here's a lady who has analyzed MBTI as well and has managed to expose some holes in it. She is a self-proclaimed INTP, but like you, she has strong emotions at times.
    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Personally, I never doubted that T's have emotions. It's definitely more complicated than that. All I have to do simply go outside and speak to TJs and TPs and will find the idea that they lack emotion disproven fairly quickly. People without emotions are autistic or in some cases, on lithium. What I've been puzzled on is not emotion, but the nature of Ti and Fi convictions. "Values" vs "Principles", and the differences on where they originate from. As for emotions, the funny thing is that ESTPs, for example, who apparently don't have Fi, can voice anger, impatience, or enthusiasm for something that can almost be construed for "feeling" to an outside observer. It's how they're reasoning that makes them Ti though. And the energy is just Se. While some ISTJs, who have Fi, come off even more stoic and less vocal about things. I have two ISTJ family members who probably should get a medal for it. Then there are ISFPs who are pleasant and soft spoken and ESTJs who can fly off the handle quickly.
    Yeah; that's no hole in the theory at all; it's people's misunderstanding of the theory, if they go so far as to expect T's to not have any emotion. All of this is about preference, not "always" and "never".
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  5. #35
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    I wouldn't really say that's the case. To be perfectly honest, I don't think I use any function with particular efficiency. I have Ne randomness and thought patterns, but rarely produce good ideas. I have Fi preference but am awful at sympathising and understanding people, I have a Ti desire to look into and solve everything and reach the truth, but I always miss things or draw the wrong conclusions if I draw any at all. And so on for the other functions.

    I think it's more my preference.
    Don't be so hard on yourself. Not that you shouldn't strive for something great, but another problem with some descriptions is that they don't really illustrate the mundane aspects of all of our lives. The world population is close to the 7 billion mark now, and not everyone is going to contribute on some dramatic level. Even if your type is a rare 3% of the population, that's still somewhere around 200 million people, I think? Whatever your type is, you should find some peace in that (at least, I do), and just do what you like. If you happen to be some super-saint-genius, that's not type related, and you can pat yourself on the back for some other reason.

    I can identify with what you're saying btw. I consider myself a good researcher and critic at best, and a mere hobbyist in artistic fields. In some ways, I'm more of an extrovert, so maybe my attention span gets in the way of being highly specialized or something. But either way, it's best to apply what the MBTI types mean in an abstract way, rather than let it dictate some standard that you're not living up to. I fell into the same trap, and didn't even want to acknowledge *ntp as a possibility simply because my IQ is 121 the last I checked. "Oh noes. I'm not a Mensa member. What ever will they say?" Who gives a shit. That's my conclusion. Besides, I've read that Feynman (ENTP probably) was apparently a 125, so I just feel silly to think something like that was ever important. His gift was also probably a lot of work ethic and determination too, so.. take that under consideration.

  6. #36
    Senior Member FakePlasticAlice's Avatar
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    i'm far from an MBTI expert, but i've found using the functions in an attempt to type myself i've become much more confused. it seems that the functions i feel i use the most don't go together to make a "real type".. plus the definitions are so varying that one definitions i feel Fe and another i feel Fi.. or both equally..the same goes for most of the functions for me. I
    While i'm a very creative artistic and feeling person...there is also a very logical, concrete and scientific side to me.

    I think the best explanation i've heard was that when you go through a difficult time in your childhood you are forced to lean on your shadow functions and they become well developed making you hard to type.

    Regardless i don't think anyone fits one type perfectly.. but has one or 2 types that are the closest to who u are...we are all individuals with our own personal feelings, thoughts and experiences after all.

    Just my 2 cents.
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  7. #37
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Also, as we've discussed in other threads, Functions aren't stand alone, so it's hard to just strip out and identify the actions of one acting exclusively. They are also calibrated differently among those of the same type, so that has to make for some very interesting distinctions even among those of the same type who act almost identically.

  8. #38
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    We are all exceptions to the rule.. We are not clones.. we are complex individuals with unique experiences and perspectives.

    We only have one true type.. and that is the type of ourselves..

    MBTI is a tool for understanding.. nothing more. It certainly does not "define" any of us.

    Functions help break down mental processes .. But they should not be used as a definition of the self either

  9. #39
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Here's a lady who has analyzed MBTI as well and has managed to expose some holes in it. She is a self-proclaimed INTP, but like you, she has strong emotions at times.
    I liked her disclaimer for using the word "crappy". Cute.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    Hello. Haven't been on in a few months. While I'm sure none to few of you care at all, here's why.

    I do not trust this system anymore (Though I can't stop analysing with it Aaargh! Seriously, I need to stop, it's driving me crazy.).

    The first problem with the MBTI system that I no longer trust is the function order. Through studying myself and various characters and people over the time I spent here, I've noticed that it is very common for people to not fit their function order or having supposedly contradicting functions. And one of the most common instances of this is when people have both Xx and Xy functions. I, for example, can not decide whether I am INTP or INFP. I detatch myself, analyse, search for things I've missed, strive for accuracy and truth, fit everything into logical systems, make decisions on a rational basis follow areas of technical interest with little regard to it's practicality etc. But also, I feel intensely, get attatched to people and care deeply about them, think of the world as full of beauty, have strong morals, like to express my emotions artistically, etc. The thing is, these elements of Ti and Fi are supposed to contradict each other and not appear in the same person, but they have hardly any contradiction at all. A fictional example is the character of Daria from Daria. Does it appear to you that a person could not retain the qualities mentioned in my above description? And as a nother example, Ne and Se. If someone enjoys coming up with crazy ideas and concepts, why does that mean they can't also enjoy exciting physical activities and experiences and notice things around them? A few examples of this in fiction are Jack Sparrow from Pirates of the Carribean and Kelso from That 70's show.

    Another thing is that these functions are supposed to be single aspects of ourselves, and yet in descriptions of them, and typing people with them, not only do people frequently disagree on the definitions (leading me to believe that they are poorly defined in the first place) but often appear very multi-faceted. For example, going by what I have most recently learned, Te is a function that judges something's worth based on what it is told (as opposed to Ti which goes into thought to verify the logicality (word?) of it), and uses that knowledge to make quick decisions. Yet somehow this also means that Te users (in some cases and something a Ti user cannot do at all for some reason) work hard and efficiently to reach recognisable goals and have a strong desire to make everything efficient and organised (seriously, what does that have to do with it?). They also seem to share some aspects with other functions, and as an example, both Ti and Te want things to be logically correct (or what they believe to be logically correct). If someone appears to have one function but also another function, the typer may say that one of them is just another function behaving in the same way. This is just one example, but it can be applied to most or all of the functions as they are given. And another thing. After many threads, I still don't understand precisely what Ni is, since all I get is hundreds of disagreeing pseudological answers.

    Also, sorry if this doesn't make sense. I am awful at explaining what I mean. It makes sense in my head but I tend to choose the wrong words or make mistakes when putting it down in reality.

    My point is, is this system really as accurate and definite and comprehensive as we make out here? Are there things that haven't been considered? I want to know what you think about this. Maybe all these holes have a rational explanation. Or maybe MBTI is an insufficient way of explaining people. For other people with functions that do not fit in a type precisely, what do you have to say in that regard?
    The function order is like that for a reason(according to the theory), a person has Ji, Je, Pe, and Pi to varying degrees, you need Je and Pe to balance out the introverted attitudes of Ji and Pi, if you were pure 100% introvert(or extrovert) you'd likely be in a mental hospital. Ti and Fi contradict each other on the basis of your internal values, it seems you don't understand what Ti and Fi means, being Ti DOES NOT mean you are an emotionless droid, functions have little to do with feeling emotions, every normal human being feels emotions, in fact, for instance, a Te dom can be more emotional than a Fi dom, there might be a difference in the expression of emotions. The judgment functions are about where you derive your basic values from, either an external context(Te or Fe) or internal context(Ti or Fi). I (in my opinion)think you are an INTP who wants more justification/internal consistency with this system(with I relate too). It is also important to remember to distinction between MBTI and jungian typology, they are not the same. I think Orangeappled's post was very informative and the best post in the thread thus far, she made an important point, stop looking at jungian functions as set skills, that's what causes most of this confusion.
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