• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Fe / Ti users: how can Te users best comment on your ideas or plans?

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
Looking for advice!

Here's a scenario: you, Fe/Ti or Ti/Fe person, are leading a work meeting today. You have decided that you need the first phase of all personnel evaluations completed by 6 Jan 2011. Head office gave you that date, and you didn't see a problem with it at first; so you agreed and now need to communicate it down the food chain.

In the meeting, when you announce the date, the first person to respond says, "You want people to have these evaluations done for their staff by that date? The financials won't be completed by then so there's no data ready to show how well they performed in 2010. The company master plan hasn't yet been updated, so there are no goals for 2011 to use to set new goals or performance targets. Three of the staff are already away for Christmas and won't be back until 3 Jan 2011. They then only have 3 days to do their appraisals."

So, to you as the leader, how do you feel when you are thus confronted? Is it embarrassing? Does it cause you to withdraw, go silent, go blank? Because, as soon as the words are spoken in the meeting, you know that all of the above is true, and you didn't think of that stuff or consult anyone to see if the date would be workable first ... but your reaction is to just tell everyone they have to get them done regardless of the logical impediments to the process.

How can a strong Te user best bring information to your attention in a meeting to help you stay open to hear it? Amend the plan accordingly? Te users can blurt out why things won't work ... so how can they say it in a way that gets more people on board?
 

MacGuffin

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
10,710
MBTI Type
xkcd
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I'm sorry what is the problem? If the date is unworkable, I don't mind being told that fact. My bigger problem would be how to communicate back to the head office that what I agreed on needs to change.
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
^ exactly ... the reaction in this scenario was to just tell everyone they have to get them done regardless of the logical impediments to the process. Is the problem with how Te raised the points? If so, how to say the above better, so it will be received in a less defensive manner.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
No, there was nothing wrong with how that was said. The problem would come in if someone objected but didn't give a practical reason. Probably their issue is deciding how to approach the leadership to let them know. Middle management sucks.
 

MacGuffin

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
10,710
MBTI Type
xkcd
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
^ exactly ... the reaction in this scenario was to just tell everyone they have to get them done regardless of the logical impediments to the process. Is the problem with how Te raised the points? If so, how to say the above better, so it will be received in a less defensive manner.

Perhaps it was how it was said. Te can sound condescending (I've read Te-users remark on this themselves).
 

JocktheMotie

Habitual Fi LineStepper
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
8,491
I don't see the problem. There's nothing you have to do other than say why something won't work.

Again, the perception that Ti users safeguard their ideas or have some sort of personal identity tied up in them is one I, and any other Ti user I have seen comment on it, don't share, and I'm not sure where it is coming from.
 

Randomnity

insert random title here
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
9,485
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Again, the perception that Ti users safeguard their ideas or have some sort of personal identity tied up in them is one I, and any other Ti user I have seen comment on it, don't share, and I'm not sure where it is coming from.

Big +1

I don't see anything wrong with this as it's stated. If there was a problem with it, perhaps there are underlying personality/historical conflicts or tone of voice/body language made it come across inappropriately. The words and rationale seem fine (assuming it actually is unworkable and not just annoying).

Edit: it is remarkably blunt, though. It could definitely use some smoothing out. It is also very definitive for what seems to be an opinion, and doesn't leave room for conflicting opinions or alternatives (as mentioned, a very rough draft given the known information could be done in three days, right?). salome has a point that it has the vibe of something a boss would say, not an employee - the tone I'm imagining in my head borders on disrespect.
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I see a problem. And I don't think it has anything to do with functions. You (or whoever) weren't asked for feedback so you were challenging his authority and gave him no opportunity to save face in front of his staff. Really, his only choice was to push back aggressively. Is it really impossible to complete the first phase of the evaluations without all the supporting data?
Couldn't you just have stressed that whilst it would be possible to complete a draft , the quality would be compromised <for the reasons given>, and did he think that would be acceptable?
That way you are both informing and offering a choice.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,145
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I'm sorry what is the problem? If the date is unworkable, I don't mind being told that fact. My bigger problem would be how to communicate back to the head office that what I agreed on needs to change.

Same here.

I mean, the problem isn't my fault, it's the upper management should have already known that the stats would not have been available before committing to a date.

I would simply relay the information, then offer alternatives, such as (1) move the date to a more realistic one or (2) keep the date but retain the limitations of the information I can realistically provide. [Perhaps the three employee assessments could be done within the three-day time, if there is enough cause; but there's no way I can get financial figures back to provide quantitative assessment of employee performance, that boundary seems set in stone.]

I would try to keep the missive as reasonable as possible and not attach blame (even if I personally felt like it was their fault and a sign of incompetence); I'd focus on the goal that needed to be met and offer a few potential solutions with an assessment of the value/limitations of each.

^ exactly ... the reaction in this scenario was to just tell everyone they have to get them done regardless of the logical impediments to the process. Is the problem with how Te raised the points?

Actually, the responses sounds a helluvamore like a Te response, not a Ti response. Ti will flex to the inherent essence of the situation and be true to its structure (and in this cases there are boundaries that can't change); Te tends to lop, stretch, cut, and whatever else.

Put another way, to Ti, the essence is immutable; to Te, the goal is immutable.

If a Ti person responded this way, then I would say it was more a 'stress reaction" because they always feel like they have to be right and in control or that other people (bosses) will be displeased with them, and they don't have the social skills and self-confidence necessary to actually work the issue.

salome said:
You (or whoever) weren't asked for feedback so you were challenging his authority and gave him no opportunity to save face in front of his staff. Really, his only choice was to push back aggressively.

Another good observation, it would be dependent on the actual context and tone of the exchange, but it's something to consider. I think in a typical hands-on workplace environment, where people have to get themselves dirty with the actual work, people are far more blunt and let things like that roll off their backs; but challenging someone in a group without allowing them room to save face / an escape hatch of sorts can lead to a power play.

I don't think I'd just label this as feedback, however; this was essential information that impacted the viability of the assignment being given. I don't see how someone could have avoided saying it; it would just need to be said in a way that did not put the boss on the defensive / trigger a power play.
 

proteanmix

Plumage and Moult
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
5,514
Enneagram
1w2
I see a problem. And I don't think it has anything to do with functions. You (or whoever) weren't asked for feedback so you were challenging his authority and gave him no opportunity to save face in front of his staff. Really, his only choice was to push back aggressively. Is it really impossible to complete the first phase of the evaluations without all the supporting data?
Couldn't you just have stressed that whilst it would be possible to complete a draft , the quality would be compromised <for the reasons given>, and did he think that would be acceptable?
That way you are both informing and offering a choice.

Lightening has struck twice, I find myself agreeing.

I don't see a problem with the OP saying what s/he said, and having been in so many similar work situations, it's difficult but not impossible. There will be a lot of griping but it can get done. The manager's main issue is rallying the troops and removing as many obstacles from getting this done as possible and putting caveats on the quality of the work to upper management.

Once the edict came down, I suppose I see this as more of a office politics thing than anything else. How to move people and get them to do? If the middle manager's work relationships are strong and solid enough people will come through, if not the person will get pushback, stonewalling, and foot dragging. Those reactions may be totally justified as well, but what the ultimate purpose. Move people into the agile project management frame, make it a combined effort, lead by example, rearrange priorities and deadlines that can be moved, assure people things will return to "normal" as soon as this is completed, and see if upper management can be flexible towards other deadlines so this can get done.

Having seen objections like that raised in many a meeting, it's typically from a person who feels like they weren't properly consulted and their first reaction is to freak and not move into problem-solving mode. Not that the objections aren't legit, but if the deadline is totally non-negotiable then it just needs to get done.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,145
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I guess it depends on how hard and fast those limitations are. If there are limitations that cannot be crossed and the goal is not going to be changed, the middle-man has the sucky position of giving the best results s/he can and then explaining rationally why the limitations could not be overcome. It all depends on the viability of the feedback -- was it all definitely true, or was it a kneejerk reaction/vent?
 

IZthe411

Carerra Lu
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
2,585
MBTI Type
INTJ
^ exactly ... the reaction in this scenario was to just tell everyone they have to get them done regardless of the logical impediments to the process. Is the problem with how Te raised the points? If so, how to say the above better, so it will be received in a less defensive manner.

Just getting it done regardless sounds more like a Te's behaviour.

I think the Fe would be taken back for a minute to let that marinate.

Not sure how it would affect a Ti dom, but based on my experience with my Ti dom boss and my Ti dom staff (surrounded by Tis!!!) They respect the deadline, but to hear that information wouldn't knock them out their seat. It seems like that's more Te......

I find that Ti users aren't likely to get offended in hearing feedback like that. It's like 'whatever' which seems to be the mantra of NTPs. I love it.
 

proteanmix

Plumage and Moult
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
5,514
Enneagram
1w2
I guess it depends on how hard and fast those limitations are. If there are limitations that cannot be crossed and the goal is not going to be changed, the middle-man has the sucky position of giving the best results s/he can and then explaining rationally why the limitations could not be overcome. It all depends on the viability of the feedback -- was it all definitely true, or was it a kneejerk reaction/vent?

Yeah, how accurate does this have to be on the first go round? Preliminary budgets were recently completed at my job with a dropdead date of the end of November, with the more precise budgets to be completed before the FY ends in January 2011.
 

Bamboo

New member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
2,689
MBTI Type
XXFP
I read the op and skimmed the responses, so what I'm saying may be a repeat:

I don't see the problem. You could either get everyone to hustle in their reports in 3 days or communicate back to upper management that the timetable needs to be moved forward.

I'd talk to upper management, and gauge how easy it is to move things around. If they can move it forward, do that. If they can't, then hustle your workers, but they won't like you for it. I see the pitfalls of both, but hey, that's how it is. Everyone makes mistakes, but you probably should remember to get data from that smart guy first before you make more choices in the future - he clearly has his bearings on the situation and is a valuable employee.
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
Thanks all for your responses so far. There are lots of good questions popping up; rather than get into the details of whether or not the Te objections are reasonable, I am hoping to focus on this:

I don't think I'd just label this as feedback, however; this was essential information that impacted the viability of the assignment being given. I don't see how someone could have avoided saying it; it would just need to be said in a way that did not put the boss on the defensive / trigger a power play.

So, @bold: how exactly would you say it? (please, anyone in thread is welcome to respond to that.)

And, if it were you personally as the boss here, would you have any kind of internal emotional reaction?
 

Randomnity

insert random title here
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
9,485
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
So, @bold: how exactly would you say it? (please, anyone in thread is welcome to respond to that.
"that seems a little soon to have a comprehensive evaluation of the issues, given the holidays and our other responsibilities. Besides, we don't know X Y Z at this point and I think it would be better to use that information in the evaluation. Can we give you a preliminary evaluation on Jan 6 that we can refine later when we've more thoroughly reviewed the facts? Or do you think it would it be better to wait until we know XYZ before drafting the evaluations?"

And, if it were you personally as the boss here, would you have any kind of internal emotional reaction?
Depends on a whole lot of factors. I would perhaps be taken aback by the forcefulness and lack of alternatives, and think that the person is overly critical (focusing on problems, not solutions).

Again, assuming what's asked for is actually not possible. If it is, it changes the situation dramatically.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,145
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
So, @bold: how exactly would you say it? (please, anyone in thread is welcome to respond to that.)

I don't know, it doesn't seem that hard to me:

"I appreciate you letting us know what has to get done, and I want to support this effort and make it happen. But I had some concerns as soon as you described these goals.

1. We can try to hurry staff evaluations, but the financials will not be completed in time, so we have no quantifiable data to describe staff performance for 2010; any evaluations we can give will be purely subjective and qualitative. Is this okay, or do we need this data?

2. Has the company master plan been updated yet? I have not seen it, but I would need this plan in order to make sure any new goals we set would support the goals from that master plan.

3. Three of our staff have already left for Christmas vacation and will not return until Jan 3. We can handle other appraisals until then, but I am not sure what to do about these three staffers. Can we submit their goals later than the deadline, as long as we get the bulk in on time? Or can we possibly shift the deadline? That would make things so much easier and enable us to fully meet the goals you are laying out."

Basically, the tone of voice is good, and alternatives are being offered.

I just sat through a risk/requirements management session at work, and basically I guess I just approach this stuff as a problem where my job is to analyze and evaluate risk/problems, and then share that information with management. It is not up to me to make the decision; I just need to provide them with honest, accurate information, and let them decide THEIR priorities.

And, if it were you personally as the boss here, would you have any kind of internal emotional reaction?

Well, in terms of practical reaction, it's a moot point -- I'd try to accommodate everyone and come up with the most reasonable solution (i.e., one that accommodates the most needs), unless upper management tied my hands, and then I'd bust my ass to help the people under me get their jobs done and support them. Not just to get the job done, but to avoid having them feel like shit, and also knowing that my helping them will lead to future goodwill.

In terms of the internal monlogue, it depends on context -- how I feel that day, tone of voice and wording of the staff, the sort of pressure and relationship I had from upper management, etc. Internally, I suppose I might feel annoyance or stress if I felt like someone were just being obstinate or waylaying what should be a simple plan and just complaining, but typically I filter that out unless I feel it's productive to respond out of it.
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
Thanks Jennifer, excellent - what you have typed above seems more natural to e-mail (for example) than saying it out loud.

How would a Te user still be concise and authoritative, appropriate to a meeting venue, but be heard better? Is simply rephrasing as a question helpful? "The financials won't be available, do you see that as a problem when everyone's ratings and raises are tied to these numbers?"

This thread is wonderful btw - it's great to see everyone drawn to the practicalities of how this could work out given the timeline, and questioning the Te statements.
 

Randomnity

insert random title here
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
9,485
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
^^what Jennifer said! :)

I think there isn't a problem being heard in this case. The original statement conveys the message accurately, and is certainly concise and authoritative - some would argue too much so. :)
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
So what I hear y'all saying is that there's a subtext missing ... that the actual literal communication above is not the issue, there's something else ... correct?
 
Top