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View Poll Results: Do you believe the functions are (pointing to something) real?

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  • I believe the functions are very real...

    9 23.08%
  • I believe the functions are pointing to something real, but I'm not sure whether they are real...

    11 28.21%
  • I believe the functions may be pointing to something real, and they may be real themselves...

    7 17.95%
  • I believe the functions may be pointing to something real, but they aren't real themselves...

    16 41.03%
  • I believe the functions are totally bogus, and aren't pointing to anything real at all...

    4 10.26%
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i think it breaks down at a certain point. where exactly does your liver end? where do individual cells begin? where exactly do we draw boundary lines classifying one thing from the next? it seems so easy at the macro level to distinguish "pillow" from "18 wheeler", but when you get to really into tiny particles we all are essentially made of the same thing. so where does red stop being red and where does it start being orange, or purple? why didn't we choose red-orange as a color instead of red and orange? where does Ne end and Se begin?

    reality... it's interpreted. we don't really know for sure if there is an objective reality. there is just what we hold to be true, and what we do not. certain things point us towards believing in a communal reality, but really the only excellent argument against solipsism is how incredibly not useful it is.
    If I were to punch you in the face, would you still question whether my fist was real...?

    Solipsism is retarded.

    It's a problem created by people who have too much time and wealth, and not enough real problems.

    I guarantee you, starving people in Africa aren't questioning whether the world is actually real.

    They are trying to get food.

    Only people from societies with too much abundance to have real problems have problems like questioning whether or not the world is real.

    I recommend you read about Aristotle's four causes to help you get a little bit out of "I Huckabees" land, and a bit back more into reality...

    (sorry about harsh treatment, it's nothing personal; you know I like you; I just don't tolerate solipsism, and I wouldn't want to see you fall prey to it.)

  2. #22
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra
    Solipsism is retarded.
    oh, agreed. my bad, i didn't mean to sound like i was supporting it. i just mean it's really hard to argue against, but obviously you and i can see that it's really quite stupid in application.

    i'm not offended though just to throw it back to typology, my dad's an NT. i grew up being questioned with rigor and sarcasm

    But see, minutes are very clear and distinct concepts, that actually point to something in reality: a certain amount of time passes, and it is not an hour, nor a second, nor a day, but a minute. It is clearly delineated, and, while it may be a human construct, it still describes an objective occurrence in reality: the passing of a specific amount of time.

    Purple is a little less clear and distinct, as there are various shades of purple, and the color is also much more dependent on the observer than is the measurement of the passing of a minute.

    In this sense, a minute is more "real" than "purple", although, I would argue that purple is still rather real, in and of itself.

    My question is: where do the functions fall in this game?

    Obviously, we have constructed the concept of the functions.

    But are they actually out there in reality? Like a liver (which is most certainly real)? Or a minute?

    Or are they more on a level of reality like purple? Or are they more real than purple? Or less real?

    ooh, but i disagree. a minute is just more universally agreed upon, while purple is more nebulous, simply by the nature of a minute being more easily measurable. i think there are certain spectrum wavelengths which coincide with purple, but we're not all familiar with them because we don't carry around spectroscopes like we do watches, and we haven't all agreed on a certain number at which purple stops being purple, while the entire idea of a minute is based on when it stops being a minute - minutes are a more practical concept than colors because we use them for more precise things. as a web designer i work in hex colors, which are very much like minutes with specified numbers correlating to specific tones.

    i really think all we can argue is that either everything is real, or everything is of questionable reality. i think it's very, very hard to delineate between them. because, after all, what's going to be your ruler for reality?

    i think that's where we just need to ditch the idea of delineating reality and go with what works in the practical world. do the functions work? seemingly, for a lot of us. if they don't, let's ditch them. we can individually ditch them, too, but of course we can't pretend like others don't hold them to be reality. ultimately this is how we treat our "facts" to a large extent, too. the world was flat until the equations stopped working. then we were forced to change our perceptions.

    whether it's good or not... i dunno. i think there's a balance to be struck between skepticism and practicality.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Functions aim at real targets, they just have a shaky shooting stance. On Se they hit the target, on Ni they overshoot to the moon.
    Interesting stance, per usual, Mr. Blaise.

    Especially considering Se is the most concrete of the functions, while Ni is the most abstract...

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    ooh, but i disagree. a minute is just more universally agreed upon, while purple is more nebulous, simply by the nature of a minute being more easily measurable. i think there are certain spectrum wavelengths which coincide with purple, but we're not all familiar with them because we don't carry around spectroscopes like we do watches, and we haven't all agreed on a certain number at which purple stops being purple, while the entire idea of a minute is based on when it stops being a minute - minutes are a more practical concept than colors because we use them for more precise things. as a web designer i work in hex colors, which are very much like minutes with specified numbers correlating to specific tones.

    i really think all we can argue is that either everything is real, or everything is of questionable reality. i think it's very, very hard to delineate between them. because, after all, what's going to be your ruler for reality?
    Please see above regarding solipsism.

    I understand your point; trust me, I do.

    But at some point you have to get beyond mere relativism, and you have to start looking at things on a sliding scale of reality.

    It's not either/or, it's how much on a scale of 0-100.

    That's my point.

    Where on that scale you want to start calling something real: well, like purple, that's up to you.

    But let's be willing to throw our stake somewhere, and not just get all wishy-wishy and call everything the same.

    Oh, and for the record: I love "I Huckabees".

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post




    Hmm...

    I don't know about blaming it on being a perceiver, but there is a definite distinction between the two.

    To say they "are" pointing to something real is to imply a high level of definitude.

    To say they "may be" pointing to something real is to imply a low level of definitude.

    I did consider being more definitive about "may be", and saying "I'm 50/50", as I have in previous similar polls.

    I decided against it, cuz saying one is 50/50 is even more definitive than just saying "may be", and I preferred leaving it a little open for interpretation.
    I consider "may be" a range from 0% probability all the way to 100% probability. 100% is also "are" and 0% is "not" but I count both also as "may be" to allow for being wrong.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Depends on what you define as real!
    Reality can also be subjective, reliant on perception.
    Exactly.

  7. #27
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    We're (probably) not going to be able to find out until someone draws neat lines between some sophisticated model of brain function and some properly articulated description of functions. And behold, some will say we have a solution to the mind-body problem, but we still won't.

    Consciousness as we are (seemingly all) thus far aware of it is essentially private. Brain function, by contrast, is essentially public. Typological notions are some kind of mixed project, an attempt to codify, nay objectify, reported private experience. Thus... [something].

    Without thinking too much about it just now, it seems like questions of the reality of typology will always struggle to get over the discontinuity that is the public/private divide.



    ...unless something happens with consciousness itself and we, I guess, find ways to become aware of the mechanism.... meaning the private experience of consciousness becomes--what? informed?--by the public events of brain and body function.... or something.

    Or not.

    Dunno.


    *divides by zero*
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    I consider "may be" a range from 0% probability all the way to 100% probability. 100% is also "are" and 0% is "not" but I count both also as "may be" to allow for being wrong.
    Agreed. That's why I asked for people to choose the best fit. I wanted to see whether they were definite in their belief, or more wishy-washy...

  9. #29
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Solipsism is retarded.

    It's a problem created by people who have too much time and wealth, and not enough real problems.
    Like function theory and questions regarding it.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Like function theory and questions regarding it.
    I would agree with the bottom of those two sentences.

    Except I wouldn't call function theory a problem.

    I would not agree with the top.

    In fact, one of the reasons we live in the abundance we do is because we have minds inquiring about valuable subjects, pushing forward our understanding of the world.

    Solipsism may have been a step along that path, but it's utility and worth have a time and place, and that is college.

    It is not an idea suitable for grown-ups.

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