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  1. #11
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    wow. i was dealing with pretty much this exact issue earlier tonight.

    it's not just a Ni thing, and Fi isn't really an answer to it. or, at least, it's an answer, but as with most answers, it leads to another dilemma. for me, it's like this --

    Fi: the set of rules/standards/"the way things are" is hurting everyone.
    Ne: why is it this way? i see different ways.
    Fi: yeah, it doesn't make any sense. it's arbitrary. i should rebel.

    but the problem, then, is that you have to decide whether you should actually rebel, and risk harming yourself and those associated with you, in addition to possibly destroying what was an arbitrary but not terrible system. or, at least, it wasn't as bad as what it could be. rebelling would be a more Fi option, in my understanding. a more Ne option would be to find and utilize as many loopholes in the system as possible.

    i find that my dilemma is balancing between these two. if i rebel too much, i end up hurting people and feeling lonely. if i exploit loopholes too much, i feel superficial: basically exactly the same as babylon candle's dilemma.

    i notice that regardless of what i decide, i do tend to act on it in some way. sometimes i overact - with growing older i've gotten much better about overacting less - but that definitely alleviates some of my frustration. perhaps it would be helpful to sometimes simply choose a path and act on it? at least then you will have impacted things - sometimes change in and of itself is good, because it shakes old systems up. allows new perspectives to become clearer to everyone.

    overall i suspect this is simply a human problem and balance will be the best answer.

  2. #12
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    1. "This" is so arbitrary! Why do people/things/institutions/life have to be this way? It only makes sense on its own terms...like "just because". These unwritten and written "rules" are so stupid!

    2. "It" may be arbitrary, but if this is what it takes to fit in, advance and be happy, then I guess it's worth it. What's the point in identifying the arbitrary if you aren't prepared to "boycott" (its just not an option in real life!). In fact, its sort of nice that if I just follow these rules (that everyone seems to follow without even knowing) things work out fine.

    If I reside too long in #1, I eventually feel lonely and run back to #2. If I reside in #2 too long, I end up feeling superficial, shallow and ironically "once again" lonely.

    So how do people who feel ***this way*** do anything??? I think its a Ni thing.
    I feel/think (1) all the time. I do not have to identify the arbitrary, it just leaps out at me, without effort on my part. How do I do anything? I do not dwell on the realization, or especially on the feelings, associated with (1), though I never pretend reality is other than it is. I go along with the arbitrary structures to the extent necessary to accomplish what I want. I play the game in my own detached way, take my winnings, and move on.

    I agree with Zarathustra's analysis as well. My reply is just the practical, condensed version. Fi is what helps one set goals and keep focused on them, like a compass, to prevent being sucked into the arbitrary game and distracted from what is truly important.

  3. #13
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Not a Ni thing, but I do see Ni as easily finding ways to bridge the gap between the "arbitrary" concerns and the.. umm.. whatever the opposite is. Reasonable, possible, individual, fun Se types don't care much for any of it either, although Se doms might make use of whatever they can if it's useful to their success or image...while some will override those concerns for the sake of freedom. ISPs might rebel or mock it, but some might not be very eloquent about it. It just comes off as angst most of the time.
    angst? i ain't got no stiggin' angst!

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    wow. i was dealing with pretty much this exact issue earlier tonight.

    it's not just a Ni thing, and Fi isn't really an answer to it. or, at least, it's an answer, but as with most answers, it leads to another dilemma. for me, it's like this --

    Fi: the set of rules/standards/"the way things are" is hurting everyone.
    Ne: why is it this way? i see different ways.
    Fi: yeah, it doesn't make any sense. it's arbitrary. i should rebel.

    but the problem, then, is that you have to decide whether you should actually rebel, and risk harming yourself and those associated with you, in addition to possibly destroying what was an arbitrary but not terrible system. or, at least, it wasn't as bad as what it could be. rebelling would be a more Fi option, in my understanding. a more Ne option would be to find and utilize as many loopholes in the system as possible.

    i find that my dilemma is balancing between these two. if i rebel too much, i end up hurting people and feeling lonely. if i exploit loopholes too much, i feel superficial: basically exactly the same as babylon candle's dilemma.

    i notice that regardless of what i decide, i do tend to act on it in some way. sometimes i overact - with growing older i've gotten much better about overacting less - but that definitely alleviates some of my frustration. perhaps it would be helpful to sometimes simply choose a path and act on it? at least then you will have impacted things - sometimes change in and of itself is good, because it shakes old systems up. allows new perspectives to become clearer to everyone.

    overall i suspect this is simply a human problem and balance will be the best answer.
    agreed, balance is key.
    i hope you guys can appreciate some buddhist wisdom... but according to their teachings, everyone ultimately is in search of happiness. so, one should respond with compassion. not everyone has found the right foothold, but we all do our best and we all have the end goal of wanting to be happy. don't undermind another because they can't see life through the same lenses. they deserve equal happiness.

    but also, the unexamined life is not worth living. and we must continuously strive to be aware of our decisions in life.

    yes, a lot of aspects of life can seem quite shallow. and a lot of the goals of success are simply subjective and arbitrary.
    we can learn to congratulate those who strive for these worldy success's of fame, beauty, and riches, if they've worked hard to get there. there's nothing wrong with a simple life of working hard. but if it's not for you, then the only justification you need is from yourself. and you can congratulate your self on not being blinded, but continue to congratulate others for whatever life they strive for as well.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

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