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  1. #61
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Othon View Post
    I'm a cold prickly of a feeler. It's not that I'm mean, I'm just cold and socially awkward. Oh well.
    Isn't that because you're a T?

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by chippinchunk View Post
    I enjoy thinkers that can have that feeler type of impression. It makes them seem more approachable and when you get to know them they actually have a lot to say. Personally, they have a talent, I admire that.
    I'd advise though when you're enjoying it, not to get too caught up in it and mistake it for genuine attachment... cos though I'm not saying T's aren't capable of genuine attachment, it's just often not the case that they're feeling it, and as cafe pointed out earlier, there are ExTP traits that can easily be mistaken for that.

    It's happened to me in the past that what I knew (and assumed was understood) as intellectual excitement and enthusiasm for a project or idea was interpreted by someone as caring about them or a big attachment to them. And then later when I've just behaved true to my intentions and not pursued the other person after the project's over, I've been accused of deceit and betrayal, which I think is a bit harsh. Cos what else could I do - stop myself whenever I get enthusiastic and say to the person "Oh, before I go on, please understand that I'm not interested in you as a person, I just find this project really exciting and I like working with you because you're competent"? Somehow I don't think that would go down as socially acceptable...

    Though the ExTP could possibly find a way to reduce that misunderstanding, I do think the other person is just as often equally to blame for seeing what they want to see.

    Just a warning there... I don't mean to put you off or anything, but just please check that people do feel what you think they do before you plan on reciprocating it...
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  3. #63
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    ...
    Cos what else could I do - stop myself whenever I get enthusiastic and say to the person "Oh, before I go on, please understand that I'm not interested in you as a person, I just find this project really exciting and I like working with you because you're competent"? Somehow I don't think that would go down as socially acceptable...
    ...
    Maybe? LOL!

    Ahhh...honesty... it's so refreshing.

    Funny how people think everything is about them. How dare they mistake our enthusiasm for a project as affection for them! Are they out of their minds?!

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I'd advise though when you're enjoying it, not to get too caught up in it and mistake it for genuine attachment... cos though I'm not saying T's aren't capable of genuine attachment, it's just often not the case that they're feeling it, and as cafe pointed out earlier, there are ExTP traits that can easily be mistaken for that.

    It's happened to me in the past that what I knew (and assumed was understood) as intellectual excitement and enthusiasm for a project or idea was interpreted by someone as caring about them or a big attachment to them. And then later when I've just behaved true to my intentions and not pursued the other person after the project's over, I've been accused of deceit and betrayal, which I think is a bit harsh. Cos what else could I do - stop myself whenever I get enthusiastic and say to the person "Oh, before I go on, please understand that I'm not interested in you as a person, I just find this project really exciting and I like working with you because you're competent"? Somehow I don't think that would go down as socially acceptable...

    Though the ExTP could possibly find a way to reduce that misunderstanding, I do think the other person is just as often equally to blame for seeing what they want to see.

    Just a warning there... I don't mean to put you off or anything, but just please check that people do feel what you think they do before you plan on reciprocating it...
    To be fair, I'd wager the ExTPs do know where the sentiments lie (or at least have a very good guess), and are not always above leaving the waters a bit muddy for the time being to enjoy the attachments too - afterall, work is easier if someone likes you personally, isn't it.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Funny how people think everything is about them. How dare they mistake our enthusiasm for a project as affection for them! Are they out of their minds?!
    I was kinda taking it as read that I do sympathize with the other person's POV and predicament... but my perception is that it's usually the non-attached person who gets the harshest criticism and has the fewest advocates/allies. People feel usually much more sympathy for someone who has had feelings hurt by someone not caring as much as they were expected to, than for someone who is being blackened because of their inability to attach, as though it were a conscious decision.

    I also wasn't saying I was angry at them for making that mistake... just frustrated on their behalf exactly because, after the event, I do understand how they got there and feel genuinely bad about it. I just wanted to try and give a warning that this can happen, because knowing something's a possibility and being on guard against it can help prevent ugly situations from evolving.

    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    To be fair, I'd wager the ExTPs do know where the sentiments lie (or at least have a very good guess), and are not always above leaving the waters a bit muddy for the time being to enjoy the attachments too - afterall, work is easier if someone likes you personally, isn't it.
    I'm not talking about not wanting someone to like you, but there's like in the detached "that person is cool to be with but I can live without them" sense, and then there's like in the "I really care about this person, they mean a lot to me and I hope I mean a lot to them too" sense, which is quite different and no, I don't think everyone wants their colleagues to feel the latter for them or is aware of it when/if they do.

    Speaking for myself, I know that the very last thing I ever suspect or believe is that someone is attached to me. Truly, honestly, the very last thing. I've found it extremely difficult to accept someone's attachment or genuine love even when I've been in a long term relationship with them - even when I'm related to them and grew up with them - so no, knowing something is there and leading someone on is not something I'm remotely capable of. If I even do notice anything, it scares the hell out of me so I'm much more likely to back off completely than lead them on.

    I can't speak for other ExTP's in that regard, obviously, but I do know that NT's are prone to detachment and often find attaching to people difficult. I also know that they very often find it difficult to believe others really care about them. Not only is it difficult for many to attach, but it's also something they've grown kinda conditioned to not being able to do, so it's not something they go into a working relationship looking for. In short, it just doesn't cross the mind, and so would not be assumed automatically to be crossing the mind of the other person.

    I was talking about something that can be deeply upsetting to both people, when something that's a result of a deep psychological trauma that a person is painfully hindered by, is put down to them being deceitful, leading people on, or deliberately misleading. I accept that there is fault on the part of the unattached person, I was just trying to point out that that's not the only place where 'fault' lies. Many people DO have a habit of seeing what they want to see, when the evidence really doesn't support it.

    But I might've guessed I'd get taken wrongly.... it's been one of those weeks where just about any good intention I have gets twisted into me being the bad guy as usual...
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I was kinda taking it as read that I do sympathize with the other person's POV and predicament... but my perception is that it's usually the non-attached person who gets the harshest criticism and has the fewest advocates/allies. People feel usually much more sympathy for someone who has had feelings hurt by someone not caring as much as they were expected to, than for someone who is being blackened because of their inability to attach, as though it were a conscious decision.

    I also wasn't saying I was angry at them for making that mistake... just frustrated on their behalf exactly because, after the event, I do understand how they got there and feel genuinely bad about it. I just wanted to try and give a warning that this can happen, because knowing something's a possibility and being on guard against it can help prevent ugly situations from evolving.



    I'm not talking about not wanting someone to like you, but there's like in the detached "that person is cool to be with but I can live without them" sense, and then there's like in the "I really care about this person, they mean a lot to me and I hope I mean a lot to them too" sense, which is quite different and no, I don't think everyone wants their colleagues to feel the latter for them or is aware of it when/if they do.

    Speaking for myself, I know that the very last thing I ever suspect or believe is that someone is attached to me. Truly, honestly, the very last thing. I've found it extremely difficult to accept someone's attachment or genuine love even when I've been in a long term relationship with them - even when I'm related to them and grew up with them - so no, knowing something is there and leading someone on is not something I'm remotely capable of. If I even do notice anything, it scares the hell out of me so I'm much more likely to back off completely than lead them on.

    I can't speak for other ExTP's in that regard, obviously, but I do know that NT's are prone to detachment and often find attaching to people difficult. I also know that they very often find it difficult to believe others really care about them. Not only is it difficult for many to attach, but it's also something they've grown kinda conditioned to not being able to do, so it's not something they go into a working relationship looking for. In short, it just doesn't cross the mind, and so would not be assumed automatically to be crossing the mind of the other person.

    I was talking about something that can be deeply upsetting to both people, when something that's a result of a deep psychological trauma that a person is painfully hindered by, is put down to them being deceitful, leading people on, or deliberately misleading. I accept that there is fault on the part of the unattached person, I was just trying to point out that that's not the only place where 'fault' lies. Many people DO have a habit of seeing what they want to see, when the evidence really doesn't support it.

    But I might've guessed I'd get taken wrongly.... it's been one of those weeks where just about any good intention I have gets twisted into me being the bad guy as usual...
    Projection. Yes. We tend to see and hear what we want to many-a-times. Then when the illusion breaks, the tendency is to blame the other person for not playing the role, simply.

    NTs may be prone to detachment, or may not suspect that someone could really care for them. Whatever the reason, it does not change the fact that they do not tend to clarify such feelings, until the dam bursts, so to speak. And this is the confusion point, isn't it?

    I think they have a good guess what someone is feeling. Ne or Se is perceptive in that way?, But whether or not they choose to believe it, and act to nip it in the bud, is another matter. Thing is to the other person, they were being patently obvious, and would perceive some actions to mean more than the ExTP would have.

  7. #67
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    I personally find that I often perceive a person behaves in a positive and friendly way towards me. However, I put it down to the fact that I'm behaving positively and friendly towards them, so they're merely being polite/considerate/civilized, because that's why I'm behaving that way towards them: because I'm not a barbarian and there's no need to be otherwise. I've learned the hard way never to assume that just because someone doesn't treat you like an animal, and treats you with respect as a human being, that this means they have any particular fondness or attachment towards you. It's just manners.

    Anyway I took a break from here cos I figured I'm not in a good state to be posting... shoulda stayed away as you see!
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I personally find that I often perceive a person behaves in a positive and friendly way towards me. However, I put it down to the fact that I'm behaving positively and friendly towards them, so they're merely being polite/considerate/civilized, because that's why I'm behaving that way towards them: because I'm not a barbarian and there's no need to be otherwise. I've learned the hard way never to assume that just because someone doesn't treat you like an animal, and treats you with respect as a human being, that this means they have any particular fondness or attachment towards you. It's just manners.

    Anyway I took a break from here cos I figured I'm not in a good state to be posting... shoulda stayed away as you see!
    Hey, it is a detached discussion. Hope you're feeling better soon.

    It is interesting, coming from a male and a female perspective, for us ENTPs. I've on the other hand, learnt to clarify straight off, any hint of flirtation or innuendo IRL, and to specify that I am really joking, because the overall experience is guys do take it seriously (i.e. mean more). *food for thought for aelan*...

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    Hey, it is a detached discussion. Hope you're feeling better soon.

    It is interesting, coming from a male and a female perspective, for us ENTPs. I've on the other hand, learnt to clarify straight off, any hint of flirtation or innuendo IRL, and to specify that I am really joking, because the overall experience is guys do take it seriously (i.e. mean more). *food for thought for aelan*...
    ha, I'm not as detached from it atm as I should be, obviously!!

    Perhaps this is where the difference lies aelan - your experiences as an attractive and smart woman are that people are interested in you, more than you in them, so you've had to make these clarifications. Perhaps it's not usual for women to be as open and friendly as you are, so you're more accustomed to being taken to be more interested than you are, or interested in a different way.

    Whereas on the other hand, my experiences are from 'awkward girl' who nobody was really interested in, to 'physical freak', likewise, so never having become accustomed to attention in that sense I've found it safe (and logical) to assume that I'm not thought of in that way. And though possibly it's not unknown for men to be open and friendly with ulterior motives, I don't tend to make any distinction between which gender I'm being friendly towards and how they take it, the whole question of sexuality being ruled out from my life... I forget I guess, that it's pretty foremost in most people's minds.

    But it honestly only just occurred to me there that you had romantic interest in mind... I was talking about platonic friendships the whole time...
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I was kinda taking it as read that I do sympathize with the other person's POV and predicament... but my perception is that it's usually the non-attached person who gets the harshest criticism and has the fewest advocates/allies. People feel usually much more sympathy for someone who has had feelings hurt by someone not caring as much as they were expected to, than for someone who is being blackened because of their inability to attach, as though it were a conscious decision.

    I also wasn't saying I was angry at them for making that mistake... just frustrated on their behalf exactly because, after the event, I do understand how they got there and feel genuinely bad about it. I just wanted to try and give a warning that this can happen, because knowing something's a possibility and being on guard against it can help prevent ugly situations from evolving.
    ...
    I didn't mean to make you feel as though you had to explain yourself.

    I was sharing my own evil and cold-hearted point of view.

    I understood you entirely correctly, and then I shared how I have felt in that circumstance.

    I know you are a kind-hearted person and genuinely feel badly for other people's pain. (And so do I - but when I was young, I was quite detached.)

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