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Could someone please help explain shadow functions?

swift sylvan

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So I have been trying to correctly understand the shadow functions so let me give you guys an example and maybe you can help enlighten my thoughts.

As a child I almost was held back a grade because of how sensitive I was. It was very easy for me to cry, for example my parents always had to fast-forward through the scene (spoiler alert) when Bambi's mom dies, it was very easy for me to take anything personally. This sounds like introverted feeling.

Another thing was that when people would give me presents I had a hard time doing what was socially acceptable. If I didn't like the gift I wouldn't pretend to and during pre-school when I didn't like what the group was doing I would go to something else. This sounds like introverted thinking.

So what I am curious about is since it seems the introverted thinking was conscious and controllable, while the introverted feeling was unconscious and uncontrollable would that make introverted thinking one of my four main functions and introverted feeling one of my shadows? Is it different for children than it is for adults? Or am I even wrong about the introverted thinking/feeling?
 

Eric B

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It's harder to tell for a child, because the functional preference is not as differentiated yet (or, in more popular lingo, "developed"). John Beebe, who developed the full eight function model, says all eight can be "shadow", until they begin differentiating.

So I really cannot tell from what you have given. It could be a preference for introverted Feeling (which would also try to remain true to your values over the social expectations). So we would need to know how you would react to these things when you got older.

Sensitivity is often associated with Feeling, but the reaction to Bambi could be either the initiation, so to speak, into an emotionally colored Fi preference, or it could be the beginning of an aversion to it, which would indicate a more likely Ti preference. In the first instance, you would grow to embrace emotional content such as that, and in the latter, you would grow to "flee" stuff like that, and find more security in logical systems.

I was thrown off by this as well, since Ti and Ti types were always described as so "detached", making it seem like they would never be moved by emotional content like that at all. But once I saw more of the Jungian underpinnings of the concepts, then it became clear that the whole point behind "preference" for one function is the suppression of the other. So you likely do feel the effect of the function, but if you grow to constantly avoid it, it is probably a suppressed function, and it is the opposite that you prefer.

When you're a child, it is all muddied, as you are experiencing all of them for the first times, and you preference has not manifested yet.
 

Lily flower

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I guess maybe you could think about a time another child was being emotional - did you offer support or did you want them to just shut up and quit whining? Fi would have mercy on the person. Ti would be irritated by the fussing.
 

Eric B

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Maybe, but not necessarily. Because the preference may not have really developed, then the products of the other functions might not be as suppressed yet. So you would simply grow more irritated with it as you get older, and focus more and more on logical stuff.
 
V

violaine

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Sensitivity is often associated with Feeling, but the reaction to Bambi could be either the initiation, so to speak, into an emotionally colored Fi preference, or it could be the beginning of an aversion to it, which would indicate a more likely Ti preference. In the first instance, you would grow to embrace emotional content such as that, and in the latter, you would grow to "flee" stuff like that, and find more security in logical systems.

I was thrown off by this as well, since Ti and Ti types were always described as so "detached", making it seem like they would never be moved by emotional content like that at all. But once I saw more of the Jungian underpinnings of the concepts, then it became clear that the whole point behind "preference" for one function is the suppression of the other. So you likely do feel the effect of the function, but if you grow to constantly avoid it, it is probably a suppressed function, and it is the opposite that you prefer.

This is interesting and something I've been pondering lately. Do you think early suppression can mask one's true preference? That one's surroundings can dictate how they develop if they are sensitive to their environment? Possibly meaning that one can gain a facility for a function that isn't a native preference. (Or does behavior dictate which preference is native? I don't think so.) ...Implying that a change in function preference could occur if a person were in a different environment more in harmony with their suppressed but perhaps native functions.
 

Eric B

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I often wonder about that, but I would think that the truly preferred function will still come out in the end. So you may learn to 'use' other ones, but you will grow up very unhappy, and feel you were never allowed to be "yourself". It won't make you actually "prefer" the other function, though it may become more within consciousness than normal.
 

swift sylvan

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I guess maybe you could think about a time another child was being emotional - did you offer support or did you want them to just shut up and quit whining? Fi would have mercy on the person. Ti would be irritated by the fussing.

I remember in 5th grade that we had to stand in assembly and we stood there for maybe 15? minutes, one of the kids knees locked and he temporarily passed out where upon hitting the ground he started crying. Some of the other kids started making fun of him later and I remember thinking to myself that it was really understandable that he cried because of that momentary loss of consciousness and waking up in the way that he did, I felt bad for him.....so I guess to answer your question I must be more Fi or Fe dominant than Ti or Te.

I often wonder about that, but I would think that the truly preferred function will still come out in the end. So you may learn to 'use' other ones, but you will grow up very unhappy, and feel you were never allowed to be "yourself". It won't make you actually "prefer" the other function, though it may become more within consciousness than normal.

I've wondered how the effects of depression on a younger child would affect development. Of course the same can be said for any severe stressor in a child's life....what do you think the effects of this situation would be?
 

nolla

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I have to admit, I haven't even started to grasp the shadow. The way it should go in my case, I should have almost nonexistent Ti, but it's hard for me to admit this. Either I perceive my Te as Ti as it is somehow mixed with Fi, or I have mixed my type from the beginning and am actually an INTP. I don't know which of these scenarios makes more sense.
 

Zarathustra

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I have to admit, I haven't even started to grasp the shadow. The way it should go in my case, I should have almost nonexistent Ti, but it's hard for me to admit this. Either I perceive my Te as Ti as it is somehow mixed with Fi, or I have mixed my type from the beginning and am actually an INTP. I don't know which of these scenarios makes more sense.

Or MBTI-prescribed function order is crap less-than-perfect...

:yes:
 

sculpting

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This is interesting and something I've been pondering lately. Do you think early suppression can mask one's true preference? That one's surroundings can dictate how they develop if they are sensitive to their environment? Possibly meaning that one can gain a facility for a function that isn't a native preference. (Or does behavior dictate which preference is native? I don't think so.) ...Implying that a change in function preference could occur if a person were in a different environment more in harmony with their suppressed but perhaps native functions.

My thought is that perhaps this is very much true. Perhaps if something prevents one form expressing their natural functions, the function is still there, but didnt get developed very well. I could imagine a variety of ways this might happen, even be parentally influenced. But the later in life it sort of explodes outwards. It sorta of forces itself to the surface, rather than stay sheltered away...this is what I have experienced at least in myself...

EricB in your example you note Fi and Ti serving suppressive roles. This makes a great deal of sense to me and seems to align with what I have noted in myself. From your understandings, would this also mean that Fe and Te are mutually supressive? Ne/Se and Ni/Si as well?

As an aside-wrt children-I watch my 3.5 year old intj a lot. It is interesting as he sort of cycles through his functions-the top four Ni, Te, Fi, and Se, but he isnt really using them in concert. He will Ni switch really crazy things and pop out with Te explanations that are utterly incorrect. Other times he will be tyrannically Te. "No mommy, this is this and that is that!" and push me out of the way to take over a task and be hyper senstive to shifts in schedules or be obsessed with catagorizing things (with that crazy ass ni underpinning).

He will then be very, very sweet and clingy-even say really sweet things. (few people get this sweetness from him <3 ). However the funniest is before bedtime...he just gets more and more active...manically so-Se I presume. Not spastic-but active. jump jump jump jump run run run run jump jump jump jump yell yell yell yell, till I drag him to bed and off to sleep he goes. normally he is actually pretty reserved and quiet, so the pre bedtime activity is very odd.
 

Zarathustra

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This is interesting and something I've been pondering lately. Do you think early suppression can mask one's true preference? That one's surroundings can dictate how they develop if they are sensitive to their environment? Possibly meaning that one can gain a facility for a function that isn't a native preference. (Or does behavior dictate which preference is native? I don't think so.) ...Implying that a change in function preference could occur if a person were in a different environment more in harmony with their suppressed but perhaps native functions.

My thought is that perhaps this is very much true. Perhaps if something prevents one form expressing their natural functions, the function is still there, but didnt get developed very well. I could imagine a variety of ways this might happen, even be parentally influenced. But the later in life it sort of explodes outwards. It sorta of forces itself to the surface, rather than stay sheltered away...this is what I have experienced at least in myself...

From another thread a few days ago (about CuriousFeeling's INTJ friend):

But, I notice he lightens up a bit with kids... his stare becomes less intense, and he's right there with them. It's like he wants to teach them.

This is an interesting phenomenon.

I totally lighten up with children, and even moreso with animals.

I've started to question why, actually, and I think it might have to do with Ni-dom development.

As children, I think Ni-doms might face the choice of Fe vs Te.

For whatever reason, some of them might reject Fe, and the other reject Te.

Those who reject Fe, choose Te, and become INTJs.

Those who reject Te, choose Fe, and become INFJs.

I've started to wonder whether this might have to do with Jung's conception of the "shadow".

Anyway, rejection of Fe might have something to do with fear of opening oneself up to others, due to the potential for hurt.

With children, and even moreso with animals, the chance for this hurt is lessened, and, as such, we might open up, and start using our Fe.

I don't know; just a theory...

:shrug:

I think you might have a point, here. Perhaps children that develop Fe as Ni users are looking for acceptance in their community? Perhaps they fear some form of retaliation against them, so they want to be as accommodating as possible?

Awesome that you mentioned that independently, cuz the bolded is exactly what I was thinking.

I actually wrote it down, but then deleted it, as I didn't want to derail the thread by unnecessarily attacking Fe.

I hadn't even gotten to thinking of the bolded and underlined, but it would seem to be accurate as well...

Interesting concept though, that people develop judging functions as a defense/ coping mechanism.

Oy, there Ti! Don't start making first principles too fast!

I haven't thought about this enough with regards to the other types (nor even Ni-doms), so I don't want to start trumpeting its truth too quickly...
 

KDude

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From another thread a few days ago (about CuriousFeeling's INTJ friend):

^Te is such a strong feature of your type that I would think you'd have to embrace it because of it's own reasons too, no?

Personally, I was kind of the opposite - I wanted to be more light hearted, friendly, etc.. (basically, like a gazillion other kids). I learned pretty quick though that being that way wasn't going to work (not for me at least). As much as I want to say "Hey, I have feelings and values too", I always end up showing my preferences for Ti to persuade or solve my problems or take the easy route and fight. At this point, I don't even know what a Fi approach is anymore. If I have ethics, it seems to be more like the Ti ethics used in this Vince Vaughn example on the Thomson Wiki.

Vaughn: The teachers thought I was crazy. I was sort of a wild kid. But I always felt like, if a kid is getting up to give a speech and he's starting to cry, he's gotta go to school with us for the rest of the year, and your f***in' with him, making him stand up there. I'd tell the kid to sit down. And they'd say, "You can't tell him that, it's my class." And I'd say, “Give him a break on the speech, he just f***in’ cried in front of you." What do you want? He's gotta go and hang out, he's gotta go to school for the rest of the day. You want him to sit up there the whole period and cry? And then when high school comes around he's the guy who cried forever? So I would get in a lot of trouble for that kind of stuff. I was always confident enough to say, "This is f***in' crazy."

He's kind of masking some Fi there too, but he's got Ti reasoning. I'm no different.
 
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