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  1. #11
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Let's face a simple fact: typology/MBTI only describe very basic features of personality. It doesn't include any influence of culture, upbringing or experience, and these can make all the difference.
    One contrasting theory holds that personality is an ego construct; in other words, it's a pastiche of basic beliefs about self and others, and drives, and given enough stress and trauma, an individual will realise that there is simple no one home, that there is nothing at the 'core' of who they are except these arbitrary structures.

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i'm not sure if culture can actually change your type, though. i really suspect that type is probably genetic to a great extent - culture just impacts how it manifests. when i lived in the nordic countries, i felt much more extraverted than i do in the states. i think it would have been easier to type myself as an E there, whereas it took me years to figure out that i wasn't an I here. i also suspect that a friend of mine there who i would put money on being an ENFJ would be much harder to recognize as an E here. she is fairly quiet and concise - but that's just the way everyone was there.
    But do you think that genetics and culture mutually affect each other, even if indirectly? For example, if a strong E type in Norway came along, would s/he just move away to another location that is more accepting of exceptionally extraverted people because s/he could not fit in well in Norway? thus adding to a larger I type density in Norway.

    If genetics are the greatest factor to MBTI development, then I would assume that we would see a clear pattern between parents' and children's types. I'm more inclined to think that when we are all tiny babies with fuzzy personalities that some external factors play a large role with what kind of personality we end up.

  3. #13
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Actually, my Danish side of my family made it's start here because of a great grandpa who was highly extroverted from what I heard. Like a crazy ESTP maybe. He was a sailor, and when they harbored in America, he decided to go AWOL, and made a name for himself here - at the risk of never being allowed in Denmark again (but he didn't care).

    On a sidenote, I like these old pics of him. He kind of reminds of me of some streetwise turn-of-the-century movie character.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So SJ might be viewed as the "traditional" mindset -- it deals with what was or what currently is, rather than looking automatically at what might be (which is more "progressive" mindset) -- but that "traditional" mindset might not include the specific values Western culture has attached to it. As a small example, there are many SJs who protest same-sex marriage (the current political firestorm over here)... but if they had been raised [for the I's] and/or existed within [the E's] a system where same-sex marriage was permissible and not an issue, they would likely defend THAT viewpoint if it were threatened by later change. It's a matter of what one has come to view as ideal and real.
    Okay, I see your point. But without necessarily defending specific values other than defending what came before, that is still a very American way. Like defending the constitution, following general principles that came from predecessors, etc. I would imagine that an SJ who defends same-sex marriage is on the young-ish side, because the value shift seems more generational than anything else. It would be interesting to see if SJ types are still the dominant in a culture that values rapid change and flexibility... I'm thinking somewhere like post-soviet or other post-conflict areas.

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    By the way, I don't think east asians come across as particularly introverted...(chinese at least - I don't know any japanese personally)

    Anyway, generally SJs aren't the majority anywhere, it's just that tests are badly designed, types are more or less equally distributed.
    Could you elaborate a bit more on this? I could *maybe* imagine that types all over the world have equal distribution but are just clustered unequally in different world areas.

    And I can see where the non-introverted vision of chinese comes from, but it just depends on who/where because it is such a huge country with an equally huge population. I was thinking more on the lines of east asian values... social relations and hierarchies that evolved from confucianism, gender expectations, manners and etiquette, etc.

  6. #16
    Ginkgo
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    The functions are hardware.
    Culture is software.
    Correspondence between the two shapes preference.
    If the atmosphere is not static, preference will not be either.

  7. #17
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I find the SJ archetype interesting in that it often gets defined by the specifics of its values or programs, where it really just represents a way of looking at things and prioritizing... and thus the details might change from culture to culture.

    ESTJ and ESFJ are more pragmatic -- they bring structure and order to personal and impersonal systems and communities, and they actually will adjust (or, maybe better, reflect) the needs and values of that system when they finally perceive them. So if the tone of the community changes, healthy ESFJ adjusts to champion those changing values; ESTJ does the same thing for organizational systems. It's just that the S focus results in prioritizing literal and tangible data rather than mere possibility (which could be whimsy), so their shifts are driving more by actual shifts in the system where it is not working as it should, rather than how it might possibly work.

    ISTJ and ISFJ on the other hand capture an "image" of the world around them when young, anchor this inside, and then maintain and defend it against change -- the inner image is the ideal image. It can change, but only if information that can be respected by the ISJ (typically, pervasive, tangible, observable, experienciable data) is received in enough quantity to negate the ideal image.

    So SJ might be viewed as the "traditional" mindset -- it deals with what was or what currently is, rather than looking automatically at what might be (which is more "progressive" mindset) -- but that "traditional" mindset might not include the specific values Western culture has attached to it. As a small example, there are many SJs who protest same-sex marriage (the current political firestorm over here)... but if they had been raised [for the I's] and/or existed within [the E's] a system where same-sex marriage was permissible and not an issue, they would likely defend THAT viewpoint if it were threatened by later change. It's a matter of what one has come to view as ideal and real.

    This is just one example where MBTI type presentation is impacted by culture. It would be interesting to compare type manifestation in various styles of culture (Western, European, Asian, African).

    that was fabulous and very interesting. Thank you

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