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  1. #11
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    also because Fi and Fe do the same thing (deal with people), but they do it in opposite ways. the way i see it is Fe prioritizes fostering a positive social environment, and if it succeeds, each individual's wellbeing is protected. Fi prioritizes fostering the wellbeing of each individual, and if it succeeds, we have a positive social environment.
    Yeah, it's like the difference between a top-down and bottom-up approach. One starts from the community norm and gets individuals to fit in, while the other starts from the individuals and reaches for a common consensus. I guess you can call it trying to achieve the "most good" vs the "least harm". Of course, they are not mutually exclusive and there are many ways of reaching a compromise in both methods.
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

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  2. #12
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    So most of the people aren't reacting as sensitively as they seem to be? I'm not just talking about in the threads that Jaguar posted, but other ones too.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Because they both over-personalize the functions.

    Though I suppose that can be expected of functions that are, by definition, personal.
    What does over-personalize mean, and why do you believe it happens with Fi and Fe?
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  3. #13
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    like jock said the functions are personal...it has everything to do with who we are at the core...if you attack it you're attacking us.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  4. #14
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    I thought my black hole was rather apt.

    typically the threads start off a bit loaded with value judgments honestly.

    Presumptious Fi
    Why are Fi users so Selfish
    Why are Fe users so manipulative
    Controlling Fe

    The first time you see this, it takes you by surprise because from the internal perspective the motives/intent/purpose are not matching with the external judgment made by the other half of your behavior. The communication barrier across the two halves gives rise to incorrect value jugdements on both sides.

    Selfish Fi? Why are all Fi users so selfish? I am not selfish! As Jock said, there is an identification with the function, thus the attack feels as though it is against us an individual. I avoided these wars as everytime I felt this, I would step back and then return with questions about the specific behavior observed, did it apply to me, is it something I can modify, is it something I want to modify? This was the ENTP-ENFP days though.

    (Although I think I once started a thread about selfish Ti and this INTP started cursing me in post 3. Whaaaa???)

    Once you figure out why you are misunderstanding each other and dig deeper and deeper, you just find more and more differences across the lines. Not bad or good, just different.

    But to actually even discuss the issue means using Fi and Fe as tools-thus applying value laden analytical tools to a discussion about conflicting values. Te and Ti are equally offensive to one another, thus even if those tools are resorted to, it still can be hard.

    To complicate things the perceiving functions also can cause issues, as in the midst of discussing Fe or Fi, the Ne or Ni perspective and subsequent Te and Ti structuring can generate seemingly obvious results to the individual, that the pother person is virtually blind to. NeTe takes an extreme macrocosmic generalist approach and NiTi takes a highly microcosmic individualized approach. Neither is wrong, oddly both may be of great value to each other, but each half is blind to the other half.

    Forgiveness and good will and an awareness at every step that the other person has information that you do not possess is essential. Otherwise both halves just keep on projecting their own internal worldview.

  5. #15
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    The Fi/Fe discussions seem fine until the Ts join in, IMO. The back & forth between actual Fi & Fe users doesn't appear to be an issue, not in my book. It's particularly NTPs who like to make jabs at Fi users, which strikes me as a weird sensitivity over their own crappy Fe use. It's also okay for a T to be sarcastic in a discussion, but an F type must be reacting out of sensitivity if they are sarcastic & not all nicey-nice. I'm not sure why critical analysis of function descriptions are immediately deemed as simply being "sensitive" either; because it's coming from Feelers & not Thinkers? So the arguments automatically have no validity? The double standard is what annoys me, and it seems less of a Fe/Fi issue than an F/T issue.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  6. #16
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The Fi/Fe discussions seem fine until the Ts join in, IMO. The back & forth between actual Fi & Fe users doesn't appear to be an issue, not in my book. It's particularly NTPs who like to make jabs at Fi users, which strikes me as a weird sensitivity over their own crappy Fe use. It's also okay for a T to be sarcastic in a discussion, but an F type must be reacting out of sensitivity if they are sarcastic & not all nicey-nice. I'm not sure why critical analysis of function descriptions are immediately deemed as simply being "sensitive" either; because it's coming from Feelers & not Thinkers? So the arguments automatically have no validity? The double standard is what annoys me, and it seems less of a Fe/Fi issue than an F/T issue.
    I've noticed this also.

    In some ways empathy can make a person less sensitive because you get a feeling for why someone is lashing out, or you get a feeling that they don't mean it personally. When empathy is accurate it tends to reveal the ways in which any behavior is not all that personally directed towards you. People have all their own problems, scars, and various communication problems. They don't often have time to be all that invested in attacking you, or even if they are and there isn't a rational reason, then they are acting out their own issues. I've wondered if the most empathetic person would be the least sensitive in their reactions to other people - at least in terms of taking things personally.
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  7. #17
    violaine
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    ^Hmm, interesting. It reminds me of something that I have noticed with a few heavy Ts I know well. (Three people to be precise.) Oftentimes if I use emotive, flowery language in describing an event they think I'm upset. I notice because I have experimented. Neutral terms vs more ornate language.

    Also, if I'm talking about something personal or a difficult situation, they assume I'm upset even though I'm not and say so. It's like they can't see past the words I'm using to my calm tone and demeanor.

    And then if I'm high-spirited about something exciting to me, woah, there is some discomfort for want of a better word around that for the people I know. (e.g. "Don't be silly, it doesn't suit you." Um, what? Lol. V. strange.)

    That is not to say I don't get upset, nor do I think there is anything wrong with being personally attached to the outcome of certain events or attached to whether someone understands what you are saying.

    I'm starting to think it's an expressive bandwidth thing. Both in terms of tolerance for expression and having interest in such things. The Ts I'm referring to are not particularly interested in personal things or the world of people.

  8. #18
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    I think sometimes someone who is an extreme T will think you're being dramatic if you use any emotive language, and presume you're butthurt if you give personal examples (even though my anecdotal stories are my way of communicating most often even when I'm happy not to mention calm and neutral, I guess I'm kind of primitive and tribal that way....I wonder if it's an F thing or a "country person thing"...I've observed people say that entire cultures are more "provincial" if they use a lot of parables in their speech).

    It's annoying to be judged that way when you're just trying to communicate and have a discussion. I also have a problem with people taking my theatrics too seriously when all they are is just that: theatrics.

  9. #19
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I think it's because a lot of people have experienced Fe and Fi issues that have caused them a lot of pain and misunderstanding. So when they come to discuss it, they can't really discuss it without bringing their emotional baggage into the discussion, which prevents a productive debate.

    NTs are not immune. Even THEY often have issues with their own inferior/tertiary functions in this regard. People are usually able to be a bit more objective about other functions, but some have sensitivity issues with those as well. It's just not as common. Feeling tends to affect people on a personal level, and dealing with people who process them too differently can be uncomfortable, which can even lead to incorrectly feeling snubbed or mistreated.

    But, I believe that there are things to be gained from Fe users and Fi users working together. Fi users can help Fe users orient themselves towards what they will really want, and make sure that social norms align with what is good for individuals, as well as what's good for the whole society. Fe users can help Fi users pay more attention to other people's perspectives, and make sure that they realize the consequences that individual values can have on the well-being of the entire group.

  10. #20
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    ^ yeah, i totally agree with the above.

    i really do like Fi-Fe discussion though, because even though it can get intense and personal, it's also helped me a lot in understanding my exchanges with others and viewing them in a different perspective. when people with strong Fe give me insight into their perspective, it can be astounding in terms of how different it is from the way i interpret things.

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