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  1. #81
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    I'd rather the world resonate true, instead of right or good, as I reject rightness or goodness as concepts. A cognitive dissonance within me as a Fi user.
    It's just probably Te speaking. Only natural.

    I would disagree that values are necessarily societal conditioning though. If anything, I think Te appropriates and organizes what's useful from Fi types (over vast periods of time, I mean) - and that part is societal conditioning. Where the original Fi values came from probably weren't. Everyone's kind of building upon revolutions, that were at one time opposed or even considered harmful to society (or so I think).

  2. #82
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    It's just probably Te speaking. Only natural.

    I would disagree that values are societal conditioning. If anything, I think Te appropriates and organizes what's useful from Fi types (over vast periods of time, I mean) - and that part is societal conditioning. Where the original Fi values came from probably weren't. Everyone's kind of building upon revolutions (or so I think).
    We're not born with values. As an extreme example, if from babyhood, we're raised to believe that cannabalism is the way to attain the qualities we respect in our enemies, we'd all be doing so.

  3. #83
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    We're not born with values. As an extreme example, if from babyhood, we're raised to believe that cannabalism is the way to attain the qualities we respect in our enemies, we'd all be doing so.
    True enough, but Fi types end up developing an inexplicable conviction in some things either way. In Te's case, they recognize values within society itself (which they can choose to find useful or not). Since you yourself approach it this way, this is how you're going to see values. As something you developed/borrowed from society. It's always going to difficult for you see where Fi is coming then. For whatever reason, stronger Fi types almost think they tap into a sort of "Platonic"/universalistic realm and look at values that way. It carries something beyond the pressure of society's weight - sometimes that even goes against or tries to redefine what society is telling them (and it's not merely individualistic btw).

    Geez... not sure if I'm explaining it right. This could get very convoluted. FWIW, I'm kind of big fanboy of Lenore Thomson's theories (an INTJ herself). Yet she explains Fi better than I do. I'd just redirect anyone who wants an explanation of Fi to her book.

  4. #84
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    True enough, but Fi types end up developing an inexplicable conviction in some things either way. In Te's case, they recognize values within society itself (which they can choose to find useful or not). Since you yourself approach it this way, this is how you're going to see values. As something you developed/borrowed from society. It's always going to difficult for you see where Fi is coming then. For whatever reason, stronger Fi types almost think they tap into a sort of "Platonic"/universalistic realm and look at values that way. It carries something beyond the pressure of society's weight - sometimes that even goes against or tries to redefine what society is telling them (and it's not merely individualistic btw).

    Geez... not sure if I'm explaining it right. This could get very convoluted. FWIW, I'm kind of big fanboy of Lenore Thomson's theories (an INTJ herself). Yet she explains Fi better than I do. I'd just redirect anyone who wants an explanation of Fi to her book.
    I can embrace that all human beings, living and non-living things are part of a larger picture of matter and energy interactions but the spirituality component will need to be embraced by stronger Fi types.

  5. #85
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    1) As Proteanmix noted in the other thread, the original descriptions were nine pages long for each function. Jaguar has condensed them to a little less than a page, and now we're arguing over just one section of that page, about 10 lines for each of the functions. So potentially there's a lot of context missing: Are we talking about how the functions are experienced by the individual, or how they are perceived by the outer world? Are we talking about perceptions of Fi-Dom and Fe-Dom, or perceptions of Fi-Aux and Fe-Aux? And so on.
    I thought we were talking about the OP, which is a called a "quick guide". If it needs more context to be understood correctly, then it's obviously not an effective overview, IMO.

    INFPs are always fighting inner battles of good vs. evil, and they lose as often as they win.

    We're guided more by internal dictates than by a need to maintain peace and order. In a shoot-out, we'll happily chuck peace and order right out the window.

    Thus, to me, the Fi-Dom "Decision-making List" is right on the mark. It's not a description of Eveready Bunnies of Hospitality and Goodwill. It's a description of tormented souls in the grip of existential debate ... or maybe it's just a description of drama queens teetering on the edge of hysterical outbursts. Call it what you want, but that's a lot closer to the real me than the "Decision-making List" for Fe-Doms.
    I don't disagree with this at all; I think it's better than the OP for the very fact that it actually touches on the internal process, as opposed to an observable attitude, which is what my problem with the OP mainly was about. Reading through the Decision-making List - it's not wrong for how I may act, but it doesn't describe the actual thinking that goes on behind it. I mean, I don't see this as a process: "My personal space is very important to me. Please don't invade my physical and emotional space.". That's all well & true, but that's not how my mind works out a feeling; that is a finished feeling, an existing value. For comparison, this short description is better to me also, because I'm getting a sense of the mental atmosphere that is Fi, of what it does to evaluate, how it comes to conclusions, its philosophical nature.

    In the bolded above, the phrases immediately resonated with me, by describing an internal debate, a weighing of matters, a constant questioning of what is important, but in a holistic passionate way. There's an inner struggle to determine significance described that I relate to, where the OP feels flat, showing the external, end result.

    I don't relate to the Fe description in the slightest, except I still hold that a few of its listed strengths are strengths of Feeling types in general. If I didn't know any better, I might actually type myself Ni-dom from the guides posted so far. If Ti is posted, I could revise that opinion though.

    I think mid-life-crisis-esque statements (er, questions) would suit Fi also:
    Who am I?
    What am I doing with my life?
    What is the purpose of my life & of life in general?
    What is necessary to avoid?
    What is necessary to promote?
    What is important, perfect, and meaningful in general?
    What is important to me as an individual?

    And no one tell me ISFPs don't think like that...I was raised by one; he's no shallow Keirsey SP.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  6. #86
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    I do feel like PeaceBaby's insight above has value. The content of the values Fi-doms adopt play a big role in how they appear externally. Fi is not inherently that externally adaptive—it lacks the utilitarian nature of Fe and Te, for example. Therefore, the willingness to appear more Fe-ishly "other oriented" depends to a large degree in whether one's values demand it of you.

    As I've said before, I think Fi-doms are clearly not entirely detached from their early social environment. We tend to adopt ideals that others may dismiss as unrealistic or unduly burdensome. This means that ideals such as "put others first" and "always act to make the world a better place" and "never hurt others if it can be avoided" may well be adopted as core values—especially if one is raised in a religious environment.

    So, while it's true that Fi is a very internal process, the ideals it adopts do affect external behavior. Because we tend to continuously evaluate ourselves against our ideals, we tend to be hyper-aware of the areas where we fall short of those ideals. Therefore, it makes sense that someone who places a lot of value on community, working through issues, harmony with others and promoting a positive emotional environment is going to disagree with statements like "Rules have to feel right to me or I will ignore them." and "If someone affronts my values I will cut them off so quickly they will just be gone."

    I also think Enneagram type plays a role here, too. An INFP 4 sp is going to have a very different relationship to social groups than an INFP 9 so.

    So, I agree with PeaceBaby that for a section that claims to be "what it's like to make decisions through one's Introverted Feeling" the section feels very external and so may clash pretty violently with certain Fi-doms' values. I don't think it really captures "what it's like to make decisions" as an Fi-dom. It's more like "some examples of decisions that may pop out the far end of the decision making process."

  7. #87
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    I can embrace that all human beings, living and non-living things are part of a larger picture of matter and energy interactions but the spirituality component will need to be embraced by stronger Fi types.
    That's cool. Sometimes I think I have a lot to learn there tbh, so I wouldn't presume an ENTJ is any weaker in their morals. It's just that they may be informed by the Te realm more than Fi doms.

    Just to add though, Fi has an aesthetic, somewhat mundane component too. It's not all morals. It could play out in how one might cook something.. where they forgo any objective Te decision making, and just wing it on how they make a spaghetti sauce. Thomson never uses the word platonic, but that's basically where I'm seeing she's heading. Not to be dramatic, but lets say there's an ethereal, "quintessential" spaghetti sauce in the universal, platonic realm. Fi is either consciously or subconsciously tapping into it's ideal about it (in conjunction with other functions of course). No one ever gets close to actual perfection, but that may be how they're approaching it. It might enable them to have a new take on spaghetti sauce than another type (hopefully, a good one). It could show up in the difference on how an INFP writer chooses his words compared to an INTP or ENTJ. It could be the choice making involved in an ISFP's piano playing. I think it's this stuff that distinguishes them too.. possibly more than their morals sometimes.

  8. #88
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    For comparison,this short description is better to me also, because I'm getting a sense of the mental atmosphere that is Fi, of what it does to evaluate, how it comes to conclusions, it's philosophical nature.
    I actually like that site, for both function and type descriptions. Probably the one I detest most is this and this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I think mid-life-crisis-esque statements (er, questions) would suit Fi also:
    Who am I?
    What am I doing with my life?
    What is the purpose of my life & of life in general?
    What is necessary to avoid?
    What is necessary to promote?
    What is important, perfect, and meaningful in general?
    What is important to me as an individual?

    And no one tell me ISFPs don't think like that...I was raised by one;
    I do think like that actually. However, if I think I'm "overthinking things" (like people I know tend to say,) I stop myself from doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    he's no shallow Keirsey SP.
    Of the sites I don't like/trust the descriptions, one of them has to be Keirsey's descriptions. In fact, I'm probably more than likely to go into deep thoughts, daydreaming, etc (except when I have to stay attentive.)

    If you were to compare me to Jeffster... wow, I would love to have his enthusiasm. There probably is a big difference from his Fi to mine.

  9. #89
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Jeffster's enthusiasm is annoying. I remember him telling purplechknz (sp?), when she was asking for some advice, that he didn't believe in bi-polar disorders or anything like that, and that she was just probably born that way - that whatever she's experiencing is her normal, healthy self. I swear. His enthusiasm has the downside of being completely thoughtless.

    I would say what Fi enthusiasm really is is what I'm doing right now. Offering up my opinion and risking unpopularity about a popular member, without giving a damn.

  10. #90
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    • Is a subjective decision-making process based on personal values. Too simplified
    • Holds private and nonnegotiable core values deep within. non negotiable? wrong. Experience, reflection and more information aids in shaping "core values"
    • Does not tolerate violations of its core beliefs. It depends.
    • Relates to people one-on-one through a fine-tuned sensitivity to the inner life of others. What has this got to do with Fi?
    • Seeks inner harmony. Seeks -INTEGRITY-


    What's Going On?

    • Is the most subjective of the four decison-making processes. Probably. The question of function subjectivity is a questionable one. One is only as rational and objective, as the premises that one bases their decisions on.
    • Develops expertise in recognizing and cultivating inner harmony. Functions aren't skill sets.
    • Has a focus on the individual, not the collective. Not always
    • Is the only process with a truly nonnegotiable element. No.

    When people are using their preferred Introverted Feeling:

    • Their beliefs are personal and are not influenced by the established value systems of their culture. No, Fi is not completely separate from everything.
    • They may view virtually anything as innately good or innately bad, as positive or negative. No. Many Fi types can see the shades of grey
    • Nurturing and protecting their inner emotional life is their primary goal. Integrity is, rather.
    • Internal harmony is more than desirable, it is critical to their well-being. Define internal harmony?
    • They are adept at knowing when something is wrong or right with others. No. Shades of grey again, and also, I never hold a "blanket" right/wrong judgment to everything. I judge, but I also analyse the situation and context. Context is everything
    • Bringing their inner system of values to fruition in the real world is usually not important to them. Wrong.
    • Are outwardly tolerant of other people's values as long as they don't conflict with their own. Probably a fair point. Fi types seem to adopt a "live and let live" attitude
    • Are often not aware of how they affect the world around them. I don't have an awareness of how I am percieved, but I do appreciate the effects of all my actions to the degree that is humanly possible
    • May cut off a relationship because their value system has been threatened, without giving any indication that anything has changed. This is a personal thing imo. Not a function thing.
    • Reveal clues to their core values through the level of passion in their voice when they speak about what's important to them. Depends on the person.
    • They are very nonjudgmental as long as their private belief system is not violated. Depends on the person. Internal judgment still occurs, but many make the effort to be externally tolerant
    • Until a value is violated, nothing brings out their effort or energy to be involved. more like, "until something deemed worthwhile is involved...."
    • Have unquestioning faith in their own values. No. I am often plagued by self doubt. "Am I really right?"
    • Assumes everyone's values are absolute so there is no sense in disputing them. I don't think in terms of absolutes
    • Some of their values may be unrelated to the existing cultural norms, and may conflict with them. Sometimes. That's a fair point. Often it's not about being unrelated, but opposed.
    • Will resist data that appears to conflict with their values. In such a situation they adapt very slowly, or not at all. No.


    Paraphrased descriptions of what it's like to make decisions through one's Introverted Feeling:


    • I can feel when people are with me or against me. No. I don't see things in black and white. I do look at motivations though
    • I use humor and sarcasm as a way of keeping my values from becoming public. I need to deflect attention from this very personal place. Is this decision making?
    • I could never work for someone whose values conflict with mine. It depends on the conflict in values.
    • My personal space is very important to me. Please don't invade my physical and emotional space. Yes, but I can tolerate it.
    • Rules have to feel right to me or I will ignore them. No, not exactly.
    • What I need most from people is affirmation, acceptance, and my freedom. True in my case.
    • If someone affronts my values I will cut them off so quickly they will just be gone. I will probably never initiate contact with that person again. Ugh, no. I am quite forgiving and can move on from things
    • I could never do something just because someone wants me to do it if it doesn't feel right to me. Depends on what it is. I never say never.
    • I have a sense of right and wrong that I cannot explain. I can explicate the process of where it came from, yes actually.
    • It's very hard for me to take a stand publicly. I have to spend time trying it on to see whether it feels right. When I do take a stand, it comes out very passionately and I am not open to debating or discussing the issue. Of course i'm up for debating. I don't protect my values from the truth, I want to know the truth. If I was wrong, good. I adjust.


    Overall, not a very insightful or accurate guide, really.

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