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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    Unhealthy Fi is a pain in the ass, overly-dominant Fi without the support of any other functions is a pain in the ass. Healthy, balanced Fi is good for everyone.
    I would suggest that there is no such thing as a 'healthy' or 'unhealthy' Fi or indeed 'healthy' or 'unhealthy' cognitive function.

    What you are labelling healthy Fi is an Fi that has decided to more be silent rather than outspoken.

    The subjective view that 'healthy' Fi should just internalise their strong beliefs to either ignore them or to not attempt to pursue them is suggesting that having a displayed belief or opinion is unhealthy and therefore wrong..

    I'm not sure it is correct to endorse that view, after all, choice is choice and peoples preferences are their preferences; I can't possibly tell them that their preference and choice is wrong if it is their choice and preference to have. I may label it with other descriptors such as irresponsible or non-empathic, but not wrong.

  2. #72
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I don't think Vicky Jo is a good example. I think Vicky Jo is a psycho, and she makes INFJs look bad.
    http://personalitycafe.com/infj-foru...tml#post502189
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  3. #73
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I think Vicky Jo is a psycho, and she makes INFJs look bad.
    That's an understatement.

  4. #74
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    That's an understatement.
    Her website is the most ridiculous conglomeration of contradictory crap. I loathe that site.

    (How's that for an assertive statement? I rarely feel that strongly about something. ha!)
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  5. #75
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Her website is the most ridiculous conglomeration of contradictory crap. I loathe that site.

    (How's that for an assertive statement? I rarely feel that strongly about something. ha!)
    That's why I'm laughing so hard. You never make comments like that.

  6. #76
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I am going to try to share some newly gained insight here, and looking for feedback on the train of thought. It's a long post, and I do apologize, but try to bear with it if you can. I am not known for being highly concise when I am trying to figure something out.

    Y'all know I look at the Fi list here and the Fe list in the other thread and get "bad" feelings; that's my radar or "ping" or vibes signal that something is off, either with the list or me, and thus merits further scrutiny.

    The process of picking apart where the signals come from is the duty of my Ne and Te, being the (extraverted) ways I interact with the world. It helps me to "ping" my thoughts off of others, and I hope for intelligent, cogent thoughts in return, in order to help refine my own. Thinking out loud; it's how I am wired. The finished product or revelation is seldom a result of hours and days of pondered thought then *poof* the answer is magically there; it's this back and forth "ping" that helps me to narrow my focus to find the right spot to look at.

    Sometimes wonderful, measured responses come from the forum, but more often than not, especially in these "feeling" type threads, there are people who interpret this exploration as either some kind of threat or an emo-rant. Neither are correct. I am saying that for the record. I still love you all regardless. To me, it seems that the forum should yield more informed, measured and relevant responses than IRL, but it's a crap-shoot here too, for a variety of reasons I won't go into.

    At any rate, this lengthy preamble is besides the point. But I wanted to share it.

    ------------

    Yesterday's Insight:

    Looking at the paraphrased descriptions of what it's like to make decisions through one's Fe:

    My values shape how I live.
    It's hard for me to be isolated from people.
    I like good vibes. I try to fix conflict.
    I am a good listener and advisor.
    I just know about people. I know what they need and want.
    How we work together is as important as what we accomplish.
    I have a very hard time saying no. It's difficult not to volunteer even if I am not asked.
    One of my biggest challenges is accepting that I can't do it all, that I can't take care of everybody.
    I sometimes take on and verbalize the unspoken feelings of the room without even knowing it.
    I have to be doing something that let's me feel that I am helping other people.

    I read this and say, "Hey, I identify a great deal with this list, is it thus the exclusive environs of Fe?" *ping* Then I read the Fi paraphrased list:

    Paraphrased descriptions of what it's like to make decisions through one's Fi:

    I can feel when people are with me or against me.
    I use humor and sarcasm as a way of keeping my values from becoming public. I need to deflect attention from this very personal place.
    I could never work for someone whose values conflict with mine.
    My personal space is very important to me. Please don't invade my physical and emotional space.
    Rules have to feel right to me or I will ignore them.
    What I need most from people is affirmation, acceptance, and my freedom.
    If someone affronts my values I will cut them off so quickly they will just be gone. I will probably never initiate contact with that person again.
    I could never do something just because someone wants me to do it if it doesn't feel right to me.
    I have a sense of right and wrong that I cannot explain.
    It's very hard for me to take a stand publicly. I have to spend time trying it on to see whether it feels right. When I do take a stand, it comes out very passionately and I am not open to debating or discussing the issue.

    I look at that and know it feels far less like me, that it's far too black and white and it just feels "off" - although not wrong, it's not right either. Another *ping*. Something bears examining.

    The Revelation:

    The key is Fi core values. The Fe list reads as a person who has a set or sub-set of core values that are close to my core values; helping others, being kind, being compassionate. My core values result in me interacting with the world IN THAT WAY, thus the list resonates! In fact, according to theory, the Fe users' core values are not "core" at all; they are more flexible, more changeable, more adaptive let's say. And I do see Fe users adapt them frequently, nice to some people, not nice to other people, and I say "Hey, Fe is not all about happy, help the world stuff; what's going on here? If they share my core value set, why do I see behaviour that is more situationally-based?"

    Here's a question as an aside: does Fe have a value set? Is it this "helper" one by default?

    Next, the Fi list to me reads as a person who has, at the heart of these statements, core values that I don't identify with, someone who presents as very self-absorbed in the world. Very black and white, very limited in experience, because values are refined and tested constantly over time. For example, someone who says, "If someone affronts my values I will cut them off so quickly they will just be gone. I will probably never initiate contact with that person again" is to me a person who doesn't hold forgiveness and compassion as a core value, or one who hasn't evolved to see the subtlety of walking in another person's shoes. So, when I read that list, and perhaps other Fi users read that list, we say, "The core values I see underneath these statements are not something I can identify with. That's just not me."

    THAT is the crux of the matter. I think that's where the objections originate from. If your core values don't resonate with this, how could you see that list as accurate?

    (Plus, still to me, the wording does have an excessive negativity, but I won't expand on that any further.)

    ---------

    So, fast-forward to the first attempts to unravel the "ping" - mine read like, "Hey something feels off to me" - it's smelling the milk bag and getting a sour smell back. I need to share the joy and "ping" it around, I am looking to see if it's just me or if other people are getting "pings". When you smell the milk bag, and aren't sure, don't you get someone else to smell or taste it too - "Does this taste right to you?" Same kind of idea. It helps to get another opinion, circulate it around, and get response back.

    Problem is it seems, some people don't want to help smell the bag, don't even want to look at the bag, just want you to shut up and figure it out yourself or throw the bag away. I respect that. BUT, I would enjoy the courtesy of you saying it politely. And not make light or fun in these threads at a process that is imperative for me to go through to deepen my own understanding of such matters.

    ---------

    And to finish this post, last but not least, many warm-hearted thanks to cascadeco for our great wall conversation yesterday - she was willing to do some back and forth work that helped me process to this point. It is deeply appreciated.

    I look forward to feedback on this post. I hope it makes sense.
    Last edited by PeaceBaby; 11-18-2010 at 01:30 PM. Reason: putting my post back up
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  7. #77
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Her website is the most ridiculous conglomeration of contradictory crap. I loathe that site.

    (How's that for an assertive statement? I rarely feel that strongly about something. ha!)
    Can't say I'm a fan either. I am certain, MBTI or not, that my personality is fundamentally different from hers. If she defines INFJ, then I would have to be something else.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  8. #78
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    I'd rather the world resonate true, instead of right or good, as I reject rightness or goodness as concepts. A cognitive dissonance within me as a Fi user.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    [...] a process that is imperative for me to go through to deepen my own understanding of such matters. [...]
    Hi PB,

    I've already said that I see Jaguar's "Reference Guides" as fairly accurate reflections of Fe and Fi in their own way. I'll try to spell out why they work for me, and then maybe we can clarify or refine precisely where our differences lie.

    First, a couple of starting assumptions:

    1) As Proteanmix noted in the other thread, the original descriptions were nine pages long for each function. Jaguar has condensed them to a little less than a page, and now we're arguing over just one section of that page, about 10 lines for each of the functions. So potentially there's a lot of context missing: Are we talking about how the functions are experienced by the individual, or how they are perceived by the outer world? Are we talking about perceptions of Fi-Dom and Fe-Dom, or perceptions of Fi-Aux and Fe-Aux? And so on.
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1387434

    2) Still, I don't mind contrasting the two 10-line sections that you focused on: the short sections titled "Paraphrased descriptions of what it's like to make decisions through one's Introverted/Extroverted Feeling" from Jaguar's original "Reference Guides." So let's call these short 10-line sections the "Decision-making Lists"

    3) However, for clarity I would like to look at how these two "Decision-making Lists" are experienced solely by Fi-Doms (INFP and ISFP) and Fe-Doms (ENFJ and ESFJ). I want to leave aside the folks who have Fi and Fe as Auxiliaries because I tend to think that a function is experienced a little differently when it's in the Auxiliary position. I could explain that in more detail in another post, and it might make an interesting thread on another occasion. But for now, let me just say that it will make the argument simpler and clearer if we just look solely at the Doms for now.

    4) Also, PB, I think it's important to note that these two "Decision-making Lists" are not lists of core values. Rather, they are rules for how the two cognitive functions work. In other words, here's how those two "Decision-making Lists" are supposed to operate:
    --For Fe: You take a core value like "I believe in the death penalty" or a core value like "I believe in abortion on demand" and you plug it into the "Decision-making List" for Fe, and you get a read-out of how an Fe-Dom will demonstrate or reflect that core value (i.e., how the Fe-Dom will deal with a conversation about the death penalty or whatever) when in society (let's say, in a crowd at a party).
    --For Fi: You take a core value like "I believe in the death penalty" or a core value like "I believe in abortion on demand" and you plug it into the "Decision-making List" for Fi, and you get a read-out of how an Fi-Dom will demonstrate or reflect his opinion on the death penalty (the core value) when in a crowd at a party.

    *******************************

    Okay, given those four assumptions, here is why I think the two "Decision-making Lists" are appropriate:

    Fe-Dom: To me, Fe-Doms (ENFJ and ESFJ) are the Eveready Bunnies of Hospitality and Goodwill. If you're at any party or social gathering, there will always be an area of good conversation and agreement around them. If it means glossing over and ignoring differences of opinions and values in order to maintain the peace, they'll happily do that. What comes first is maintaining peace and order.

    Now, I'm sure I'll receive some protests that there are plenty of times when Fe-Doms become shrill or demanding or manipulative. But generally Fe-Doms do those things in order to corral straying malcontents and push them back in line. In other words, even their worst moods are still about maintaining peace and order.

    Fi-Dom: To me, Fi-Doms (INFP and ISFP) spend much of their lives teetering on a ledge: Am I a bad person if I do this thing? Should I speak up and risk making enemies? My boss is strongly and vocally pro-life, and I simply can't be around people like that--do I hide my pro-choice sympathies from him, or should I just quit my job now and be done with it?

    INFPs are always fighting inner battles of good vs. evil, and they lose as often as they win. Externally, the bad times shows up as defensiveness, brittle tempers, ill-hidden stress, and a propensity to walk away from inconvenient interactions or relationships. I know that there are plenty of INFP who see themselves as people-pleasers and who might be able to mimic Fe-Doms to some extent. But anyone who posted and spent any amount of time at INFP-gc can vouch for the blow-ups, the brittleness, and walking-on-eggshells vibe at that site.

    I'm not saying that we can't be warm and humble and all that. We have those things in us too. But we're not the Eveready Bunnies of Hospitality and Goodwill. We're guided more by internal dictates than by a need to maintain peace and order. In a shoot-out, we'll happily chuck peace and order right out the window.

    The "Decision-making List" for Fe-Dom: For me personally, as an INFP and an Fi-Dom, I feel that there's no way that the list for Fe-Dom pertains to me. It's all about responding to people and keeping the peace--it's a list for Eveready Bunnies of Hospitality and Goodwill. Frankly, I see Fe-Dom as kind of dreary and even masochistic: Everything personal has to be pushed aside and glossed over in order to maintain order and keep the peace. The Fe-Dom list is a set of imperatives for automatons. (I'm overstating the case, of course, but hopefully you see where I'm going with this.)

    In other words, if I hold the core value "I believe in the death penalty" and I plug it into the Fe-Dom "Decision-making List," it's clear what the outcome will be: Gloss over the differences, change the subject, keep the peace, and maintain an aura of hospitality and goodwill at all costs. That kind of mentality is, frankly, foreign to me.

    The "Decision-making List" for Fi-Dom: As an INFP and an Fi-Dom, when I read the "Decision-making List" for Fi-Dom I say, "Aha! Here I am!" If I'm walking through a party with a controversial opinion at the top of my mind because of some hot death penalty debate in the newspapers lately, then I'll be ducking and dodging. I'm walking a tightrope. My Ne is dying to engage with someone on the issue, and at the same time my value is so personal and deeply held that I fear any push-back from the other person will cause me to lose it. I'm wrestling between burying my opinion so deep no one will ever find it except me, on the one hand, versus going up to someone who holds the exact opposite opinion and getting in their face and showing them the folly of everything they stand for. (I'm overstating the case again, but hopefully you see where I'm going with this.)

    In other words, if I hold the core value "I believe in the death penalty" and I plug it into the Fi-Dom "Decision-making List," it's clear that the outcome is anything but definite. I may keep the peace and figure it's no one's business but mine; or I may get so disgusted at hearing people around me taking the other side of the issue that I end up drinking too much, getting in a fight with my best friend over the issue, stomping away disgusted, and resolving never to see him ever again.

    Thus, to me, the Fi-Dom "Decision-making List" is right on the mark. It's not a description of Eveready Bunnies of Hospitality and Goodwill. It's a description of tormented souls in the grip of existential debate ... or maybe it's just a description of drama queens teetering on the edge of hysterical outbursts. Call it what you want, but that's a lot closer to the real me than the "Decision-making List" for Fe-Doms.

    ************************************
    Again, hopefully everyone will understand that I simultaneously overstated and oversimplified my points, to make the distinctions ultra-clear. A little hyperbole goes a long way.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I would suggest that there is no such thing as a 'healthy' or 'unhealthy' Fi or indeed 'healthy' or 'unhealthy' cognitive function.

    What you are labelling healthy Fi is an Fi that has decided to more be silent rather than outspoken.

    .
    I'm going to agree with this. "Healthy" Fi seems to be the more passive version, or the kind of Fi that Enneagram 9s have.

    However, I'm not butthurt at all about this description of Fi in the OP, I wanted to add that here. It didn't seem especially negative to me or anything. Maybe because it's not my dom function?

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