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  1. #131
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    ^ lol. no deal! though it would be pretty funny
    that really only applies to enneagram 4s anyway

    slowriot, here's my attempt.

    the format for this excerpt is taken directly from the text Building Blocks of Personality Type - A Guide to Using the Eight-Process Model by L. Haas. i've kept some of the original Fi statements, and otherwise mirrored it off the Fe guide from the same work as much as possible. the number of the bullets and even the phrasing is the same to the best extent that i could manage. this is not my work; it is based primarily off the work of Haas, supplemented with ideas from Jung and Keirsey.

    if any Fi dom/aux think i'm totally (or just somewhat) off, by all means please point it out

    unfortunately, without the original Fi and Fe guide posts, i am unable to identify the exact words that are my own and the exact words that belong to Haas. i'm deleting the information here - if you'd like to see it, please PM me. i will be working on getting a hold of haas' text in the meantime, so that i can provide proper citations. my apologies to haas for any misunderstandings this post has engendered.
    Last edited by skylights; 11-17-2010 at 01:04 PM.

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    How about if I delete everything in the guide and just use that?
    Deal?

    I can totally see how this thread would make you say that. It's been very helpful to me, though, in seeing that I'm ENFP rather than INFP.

  3. #133
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    The only person whose opinion matters to Lenore, is Lenore. If you are a good boy, or girl, she will even beam you up to see Captain Kirk and Scotty.
    I like her description myself, but then again, I've decided on Ti now. My process is "effable" (there's more differences I can point out with Fi though). Instead of arguing about it, I'll just take other Fi dom descriptions on their own terms and redefine myself instead. Maybe some other people should do the same.

  4. #134
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopelandic View Post
    Is a subjective decision-making process based on personal values. Too simplified
    No, it's a first-order description; essentially the definition of Fi.

    Holds private and nonnegotiable core values deep within. non negotiable? wrong. Experience, reflection and more information aids in shaping "core values"
    I'd agree with your assessment, here. Externally, they seem non-negotiable. Internally, they are always being adjusted ever so slightly. What is "non-negotiable" is that others don't simply get to say "you're wrong" and have their input immediately accepted. Rather, differences must be analyzed, understood, and if they require a real adaptation, one must fundamentally alter one's own core to adapt, it isn't simply a matter of deciding to wear a different colored shirt.

    Does not tolerate violations of its core beliefs. It depends.
    For the most part, no, such toleration is not present. What is left unsaid is what comprises "violation" and "core beliefs." Most core beliefs are very personal, and there is an implicit recognition that others have their own, different core beliefs, and that we can all live together without forcing our beliefs on each other. The violation that isn't tolerated isn't that someone else chooses a different value or lifestyle, but that others would force that value/lifestyle upon oneself. In only a few exceptional cases do typical Fi core beliefs exert intolerance outside oneself, usually only in fairly clear black-and-white cases of right and wrong, such as not tolerating people hurting other people.

    Relates to people one-on-one through a fine-tuned sensitivity to the inner life of others. What has this got to do with Fi?
    It's a badly-phrased description of how Fi derives and applies its understanding. I believe that Fi essentially starts with self-understanding, and then understands others in terms of how others differ from oneself, which in turn leads to an understanding of others on a one-to-one basis.

    Seeks inner harmony. Seeks -INTEGRITY-
    I don't think "inner harmony" is drastically different from "integrity" in this context. As long as one doesn't regard it as necessarily a religious/spiritual form of inner harmony. Being true to oneself is inner harmony.

    What's Going On?

    Is the most subjective of the four decison-making processes. Probably. The question of function subjectivity is a questionable one. One is only as rational and objective, as the premises that one bases their decisions on.
    This is another statement that is mostly definition. "F" is subjective where "T" is objective, in one sense of the word, and "i" is subjective and "e" is objective in a more Jungian sense of the word. When regarding these uses of "objective" and "subjective" in that very specific and technical way, it becomes clear that the quoted statement is treating the word "subjective" as meaning the same thing in both cases. It is not really the most subjective function in any meaningful sense.

    I would describe Fi as holistic introverted judging. "Subjective" is perhaps a better word than "introverted" but it's meaning gets confused as we have seen. Rather the focus of Fi is on an internal understanding of matters.

    Develops expertise in recognizing and cultivating inner harmony. Functions aren't skill sets.
    No, they aren't skill sets, but they do favor an easier development of certain skillsets.

    Has a focus on the individual, not the collective. Not always
    Fe regards the collective as its own entity. Fi regards the collective as a collection of individuals.

    The Rousseau concept of "general will" is a very Fe concept: it exists outside the experience of any one individual. An Fi attitude essentially rejects the concept of a general will in the Rousseau sense, because it is not found within a single individual.

    Fi would not describe a vote of a committee as the "will of the committee" but rather as the most practical way of deciding what should be done when there is inevitable disagreement between individuals.


    Is the only process with a truly nonnegotiable element. No.
    Agreed. Even if it were true, it would be an essentially meaningless definitional statement.

    When people are using their preferred Introverted Feeling:

    Their beliefs are personal and are not influenced by the established value systems of their culture. No, Fi is not completely separate from everything.
    Agreed. Fi definitely involves Te to a degree, and either Ne or Se. The beliefs are definitely influenced by culture, but less so than for Fe.

    They may view virtually anything as innately good or innately bad, as positive or negative. No. Many Fi types can see the shades of grey
    You aren't actually disagreeing with the statement, here. It doesn't preclude shades of gray. Rather, it indicates how anything might by the subject of the holistic Fi approach.


    Nurturing and protecting their inner emotional life is their primary goal. Integrity is, rather.
    It is not the "inner emotional life" per se that is is the primary goal, that is for sure. Integrity comes closer, but I doubt it's universal.

    Internal harmony is more than desirable, it is critical to their well-being. Define internal harmony?
    "Integrity" in your words. I read is as describing the "je ne sais quoi" of Fi, the wholly internal, subjective goal that isn't easily translated into words.

    They are adept at knowing when something is wrong or right with others. No. Shades of grey again, and also, I never hold a "blanket" right/wrong judgment to everything. I judge, but I also analyse the situation and context. Context is everything
    "Adept" doesn't mean perfect. I would agree, however, that the "shades of gray" that Fi recognizes are unwittingly dismissed in this case.

    Bringing their inner system of values to fruition in the real world is usually not important to them. Wrong.
    Agreed. This is a misunderstanding of Fi, just as insisting that Ti has no material goals just because such goals are initially subjective and not easily expressed in an extroverted way.

    Are outwardly tolerant of other people's values as long as they don't conflict with their own. Probably a fair point. Fi types seem to adopt a "live and let live" attitude
    It misses the aspect that Fi can be tolerant of conflicting values, insofar as something can be right and good for oneself, but not necessarily right and good for others.

    Are often not aware of how they affect the world around them. I don't have an awareness of how I am percieved, but I do appreciate the effects of all my actions to the degree that is humanly possible
    Yeah, this would be better understood as "are often not aware of how they affect the world around them in an Fe way." Fe is predisposed to being aware of one's effect upon others, Fi is predisposed to being aware of oneself.

    May cut off a relationship because their value system has been threatened, without giving any indication that anything has changed. This is a personal thing imo. Not a function thing.
    Yeah, this is stretching a bit. As a function, Fi is more likely to retreat without informing others as to why. Whether it is a complete cut-off is circumstantial, and Fe is just as capable of cutting of relations with someone. Also, it helps to restate it as "because their integrity has been threatened," i.e., the other's presence is causing them to behave in ways that they would normally disapprove.

    Reveal clues to their core values through the level of passion in their voice when they speak about what's important to them. Depends on the person.
    I think this is mostly true, and not a "depends." It is part and parcel of how Fi users understand and perceive "integrity" in each other. The Fi expression of passion for a subject reads very differently from the Fe expression of the same. The Fe version often feels "contrived" to Fi users.

    They are very nonjudgmental as long as their private belief system is not violated. Depends on the person. Internal judgment still occurs, but many make the effort to be externally tolerant
    Again, this doesn't really explain how a violation occurs. Usually a "violation" is not mere disagreement. Fi has all sorts of disagreements with others' values, but accepts them as valid for those others. A violation of personal values is very serious, not merely a "hot button" topic for debate. It is a violation of integrity.

    Until a value is violated, nothing brings out their effort or energy to be involved. more like, "until something deemed worthwhile is involved...."
    This is one of the worst lines in the description. While violations of values/integrity do motivate, it is certainly not the sole motivation. Sometimes motivation comes entirely from within. It's just that the violations of values may be the only obvious effect that most other see.

    Have unquestioning faith in their own values. No. I am often plagued by self doubt. "Am I really right?"
    There is a strong parallel here to the notion that Ti has a strong faith in one's own logic. In practice, it is a valid observation, but Ti always questions what it really true, and will object when others appear to pretend to know the truth, when there is no way to know the real truth.

    The values are always under evaluation. The reason they seem "unquestioned" is that the Fi user is questioning them internally at a very deep and fundamental level, and the judgments of others in this realm might best be described as "not even wrong."

    Assumes everyone's values are absolute so there is no sense in disputing them. I don't think in terms of absolutes
    Yeah, this is essentially incorrect. The truth is that Fi assumes that there is no good purpose in disputing others' values unless they directly conflict with one's own.

    Some of their values may be unrelated to the existing cultural norms, and may conflict with them. Sometimes. That's a fair point. Often it's not about being unrelated, but opposed.
    Heck, this is an understatement.

    Will resist data that appears to conflict with their values. In such a situation they adapt very slowly, or not at all. No.
    Actually it depends on the kind of data. Te-style data will allow fairly quick adaptation. Fe-style "data" will be strongly resisted. E.g., "everyone else thinks this is true, so you should too ..."


    Paraphrased descriptions of what it's like to make decisions through one's Introverted Feeling:


    I can feel when people are with me or against me. No. I don't see things in black and white. I do look at motivations though
    Yeah, this doesn't feel right, to me. Perhaps it's a description of sensing individual motivations?

    I use humor and sarcasm as a way of keeping my values from becoming public. I need to deflect attention from this very personal place. Is this decision making?
    I think this might be more Se/Ne. Both perceiving functions are used in such a way as to "spoof" attempts to nudge/prod/poke Fi in a direct way.


    I could never work for someone whose values conflict with mine. It depends on the conflict in values.
    And the kind of work. E.g., I couldn't work for someone to further a cause with which I disagreed, or violated my integrity in a particular way, but I could work with someone with whom I had serious disagreements, but the work didn't cause me to violate my integrity for the sake of those disagreements.

    My personal space is very important to me. Please don't invade my physical and emotional space. Yes, but I can tolerate it.
    Perhaps for Fi doms, but this seems to be more a feature of introversion that "personal space."

    Rules have to feel right to me or I will ignore them. No, not exactly.
    Yeah, this one sounds rather fickle. Better to say that given the choice between integrity and rules, I will choose integrity. Part of my integrity is respecting others' rules, so this isn't done lightly.

    What I need most from people is affirmation, acceptance, and my freedom. True in my case.
    I'm INTJ, so this one falls flat for me, except for the freedom part.

    In my personal life, I value the acceptance, and the affirmation only implies that the acceptance is there; the affirmation doesn't move me one way or the other.

    If someone affronts my values I will cut them off so quickly they will just be gone. I will probably never initiate contact with that person again. Ugh, no. I am quite forgiving and can move on from things
    One thing that gets very lost in this description is the "forgiveness" aspect of Fi. Implicit in accepting others as they are (so long as they don't violate one's own integrity), is a forgiveness of their faults, that often one is forgiven even before one makes a transgression.

    The cut-off items in these descriptions seem more apt for violations of one's own integrity, as opposed to not living up to one's ideals. As I mention before, a "violation" is a serious thing, not just an annoyance.

    I could never do something just because someone wants me to do it if it doesn't feel right to me. Depends on what it is. I never say never.
    You wouldn't do it if it violated your integrity. "It doesn't feel right" is a very weak way of saying "violates my integrity," hence this reads wrong.


    I have a sense of right and wrong that I cannot explain. I can explicate the process of where it came from, yes actually.
    Yeah, this particular statement arises from from Fi when one lacks self-awareness. Strongly developed Fi is quite capable of explaining what is right or wrong, though it can be difficult for others who have not had similar experiences to understand.


    It's very hard for me to take a stand publicly. I have to spend time trying it on to see whether it feels right. When I do take a stand, it comes out very passionately and I am not open to debating or discussing the issue. Of course i'm up for debating. I don't protect my values from the truth, I want to know the truth. If I was wrong, good. I adjust.
    Yeah, this one isn't well-described, either. Fi definitely doesn't care to make a public spectacle of itself, and when it does, it has usually already decided things for itself, and isn't up for argument. This is a different venue than debate: the reason it isn't up for debate is because it has already been debated (mostly internally, but often externally, too). The goal is to persuade, not debate, at this point.

    Overall, I don't think that these descriptions are as poor as some have made them out to be, but given the large set of observations, it is inevitable that some don't ring true, especially when expressed in an unaccustomed way.

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The Rousseau concept of "general will" is a very Fe concept: it exists outside the experience of any one individual. An Fi attitude essentially rejects the concept of a general will in the Rousseau sense, because it is not found within a single individual.
    The term "General will" was not coined by Rousseau, and was used by many of the Enlightenment thinkers of his time. It's my opinion that he was an INFP, and that he probably saw it from an Ne/Te angle.

    Anyway, carry on.

  6. #136
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    I can give us a definition of Fi everyone should agree to:

    Introverted Feeling is an internal judgement system based upon what your instincts tell you is right and wrong regardless of the needs of group dynamics.

  7. #137
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I can give us a definition of Fi everyone should agree to:

    Introverted Feeling is an internal judgement system based upon what your instincts tell you is right and wrong regardless of the needs of group dynamics.
    How does that translate into someone who has a harder time expressing this then? If they have the courage to define themselves and other things on the outside regardless of group dynamics, then why is Fi generally described as "ineffable" or even non-assertive? Apparently, I mean. From my point of view, someone like that is already making a bold step in going there in the first place. Yet they're NOT assertive and can't really talk about it? That doesn't make any sense to me.

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    How does that translate into someone who has a harder time expressing this then? If they have the courage to define themselves and other things on the outside regardless of group dynamics, then why is Fi generally described as "ineffable" or even non-assertive? Apparently, I mean. From my point of view, someone like that is already making a bold step in going there in the first place. Yet they're NOT assertive and can't really talk about it? That doesn't make any sense to me.
    One doesn't have to talk about it to live by it, do they? Unless I misunderstood your question?

  9. #139
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    No, you haven't misunderstood. I guess it makes sense that just living is good enough in itself. I just figured they'd be able to define their views more often (in words). In some descriptions, Fe, Te, and Ti have a facility with language that Fi doesn't.

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    No, you haven't misunderstood. I guess it makes sense that just living is good enough in itself. I just figured they'd be able to define their views more often (in words). In some descriptions, Fe, Te, and Ti have a facility with language that Fi doesn't.
    It donned on me reading Psychological Types when Jung refers to a very much introverting-introvert that they display the opposite tertiary attitude...

    ie:
    More Balanced INTJ -> Ni -> Te -> Fi -> Se
    More Introverted INTJ -> Ni -> Te -> Fe -> Se

    That the more introverted INTJ stops voicing their beliefs and merely becomes more socially compliant by being more introvert and brings out their inner persona publically by extroverting but others may find it very 'strong' and unsympathetic.

    Whereas for the ENTP...

    More Extroverted ENTP -> Ne -> Ti -> Fi -> Si
    More Balanced ENTP -> Ne -> Ti -> Fe -> Si

    That by bringing the ENTP down to a more balanced position they relate to others better; the opposite directional effect!

    Just an idea that's in my head right now. And I don't think it's so wrong when it comes to some kind of cognitive/behavioural linkage. Anyway I can't remember why I posted this here but I have a feeling it has something to do with the topic at hand.

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