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  1. #121
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    Preamble: I'm taking my lead from the discussion that has been ongoing (the sketchiness of the Fi description vs. the ineffability of the processes that underlie it, etc.) But to save space, I won't bother citing all my antecedents. I'll just jump in with my own thoughts.

    ************************

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    If I didn't know any better, I might actually type myself Ni-dom from the guides posted so far.
    ^^Here. Basically, I tend to think N and F are very similar processes: They both seem to be "associative" processes, as in the concept of Freudian "free association." The N process involves "association" of concepts and thoughts, the F process involves "association" of emotions and values.

    A simple example of how N-style "association" would work: You watch an action occurring in front of you, and in the meantime you're hearing music coming from another source. Suddenly for a few seconds the two synch up and the action seems to be occurring together with the music. The correspondence or synchronicity of the two initial stimuli generates a creative idea: Perhaps an idea for a new dance move, perhaps an idea for a story or research project based on the musicality of repetitive actions, perhaps a new way to interpret the lyrics of the music.

    Ni seems to hold multiple ideas in a web, and then constantly churns those ideas, comparing them to one another in succession and trying to find new ways to fit them together. Occasionally two ideas "synch" in some unforeseen way, and a creative process is generated: A third idea is created that didn't previously exist.

    With experience, the associations can be increasingly remote (the two foundational ideas can be increasingly dissimilar), in which case the synthesized idea will increasingly seem to come magically from nothingness. The creative process appears increasingly magical or like a visitation from on high.

    Fi works somewhat similarly. Association works particularly well on the emotional level. A spider bites us, we yell, and we create an associative path: Spiders henceforth generate emotions of fear, revulsion, or whatever. Later in life, with increased experience and subtlety, those who enjoy playing with the tenuous paths of association can stack up hundreds of thousands of emotional values and become quite adept at playing them off against each other.

    Example: There's a spider in the room; spiders are part of the natural process and I should take it outside the house and set it loose; but that is going to take time, and my wife will be entering the room in seconds and will be frightened when she sees the live spider, so I should probably just kill it immediately. So which value do I set above the other? And that sets off a process of winnowing and balancing: Empathy for my wife and my desire to spare her a fright, empathy for the spider and the natural process, and attachment to my own desires and a wish to stand up for what I believe in.

    Naturally, Ni is going to be easier to experience and describe than Fi: With Ni, you play with a bunch of ideas, and suddenly a new idea or creative process emerges seemingly from nowhere.

    Fi is a little tougher; it's not specifically creative. It's a decision-making process: constantly generating emotional associations over time, and then when a situation calls for a decision we suddenly winnow dozens or perhaps even hundreds of competing associations and related concerns (values) until a decision is made. At its best, the final decision may involve a synthesis or a compromise between opposing values. But in any case the process itself is going to seems somewhat "ineffable" because: a) the process is so personalized (the experiences and associations and values of each Fi-Dom are different); b) it's largely unconscious (the associative process works best in the unconscious, where associative shortcuts are easily formed); c) and the end result--the actual decision that is reached--is going to vary so widely from one Fi-Dom to the next.

    But OrangeAppled recognized that the deliberative process of Ni is similar to what Fi does. And I have to agree. So I agree with those who feel that the Fi description is lacking in some key way. I agree that the description of Fi could be fleshed out somewhat to include some indication of the deliberative process--the creation of thousands of emotional associations and values across time, then a quick comparison and winnowing of competing associations to find a solution for a given situation.

    Just a quick tangent: I think the description of Fi is right and even evocative in one respect: Jaguar's "Quick Reference Guide" in the OP is internally contradictory and helter-skelter in some respects. And I tend to feel that my Fi works similarly, contrasting and bouncing around among many contradictory values as it goes through the winnowing process.

    Also, I think this associative process probably applies to the Fe deliberative process as well. Clearly Fe-Doms have emotional associations and values of their own; presumably they winnow through them to figure out which ones would work best for a given situation. I think the description of Fe suffers from the same faults as Fi: It doesn't describe where and how basic values are formed in the first place; it only describes how those values interact with the world. It would be fun to compare Ne to Fe and see if some kind of parallel can be drawn there.

    But in the end if we are to flesh out Fi properly, I think we have to look closer at Ni (as OrangeAppled has done) rather than at Fe. Ni seems to have a fairly good picture of an internal deliberative process, and that's precisely what's missing from the description of Fi.

    Just my opinion, as always. Just throwing it out there to see if resonates with anyone else.

  2. #122
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Fi is a little tougher; it's not specifically creative. It's a decision-making process: constantly generating emotional associations over time, and then when a situation calls for a decision we suddenly winnow dozens or perhaps even hundreds of competing associations and related concerns (values) until a decision is made. At its best, the final decision may involve a synthesis or a compromise between opposing values. But in any case the process itself is going to seems somewhat "ineffable" because: a) the process is so personalized (the experiences and associations and values of each Fi-Dom are different); b) it's largely unconscious (the associative process works best in the unconscious, where associative shortcuts are easily formed); c) and the end result--the actual decision that is reached--is going to vary so widely from one Fi-Dom to the next.
    Yes, this resonates with me. Very well-expressed.
    Last edited by PeaceBaby; 11-15-2010 at 02:46 PM.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  3. #123
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I think what tater was creatively trying to say is that even if an Fi users values are in opposition to anothers then it is still 'Fi' as the underlying mindset is the same and that the base description can only deal with a generic classification, not specifics. I think I can support that opinion.
    Yes, but that's exactly where the OP fails. It does not describe a generic classification; instead, it is too specific. I & quite a few others have been saying the underlying mindset is the same, but that it has not been adequately described. Once again, there is little mention of what the process feels like.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Yes, but that's exactly where the OP fails. It does not describe a generic classification; instead, it is too specific. I & quite a few others have been saying the underlying mindset is the same, but that it has not been adequately described. Once again, there is little mention of what the process feels like.
    So you want one liners that describe what the process feels like?

  5. #125
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    ^ yes... if only because that's what the guide say's it going to give:

    Quote Originally Posted by Guide Categories
    What's Going On
    When people are using their preferred Introverted Feeling
    Paraphrased descriptions of what it's like to make decisions through one's Introverted Feeling
    all of those sound like processes to me.

    FineLine, your parallel between Ni and Fi was excellent. theoretically Fi should parallel Ti in terms of process as well.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    ^ yes... if only because that's what the guide say's it going to give:
    Im really interested in seeing what your one liners would be like. Will any of you please rewrite the lines, so I can see what you mean? Just one rule; please dont add more lines than what is in the OP under each section, since this is from a book, where each original line is covered in depth later in the book.

    If you cant do that: Can anyone make an outline of what a text describing Fi would be like? In short simple descriptory lines. Chapters, headlines, paragraphs and so on, there are no limits.

  7. #127
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    But in any case the process itself is going to seems somewhat "ineffable" because: a) the process is so personalized (the experiences and associations and values of each Fi-Dom are different); b) it's largely unconscious (the associative process works best in the unconscious, where associative shortcuts are easily formed); c) and the end result--the actual decision that is reached--is going to vary so widely from one Fi-Dom to the next.
    Anyone should be able to realize that within seconds of reading any Fi description, no matter who the author is. It took 85 pages of yammering in another thread to produce a post from someone else, who realized the same:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Fi seems to be experienced so uniquely by the individual as to be useless for any kind of outwardly valid analysis. The concept of "feeling tones" in particular- I haven't seen any two Fi-doms describe it the same way, whether during this conversation or any other I've read or had in the past five years I've been on these forums. It seems like we're all throwing piles of Jello at moving targets here, and sometimes inadvertently hitting each other in the face.
    As a matter of fact, I liked Ivy's post so much, it gave me an idea for another thread that I will be creating - not about Fi, I assure you.

    As for the QRG itself, I will reiterate for those who aren't listening, or don't want to listen because of their own personal agendas, it was made with the input of INFPs and ISFPs. The majority of books on type, or the mental processes, are written from but a single lense - the author's. This wasn't even remotely the case in this situation. If you want to see single-minded authors, may I suggest you stick with Lenore Thomson. The only person whose opinion matters to Lenore, is Lenore. If you are a good boy, or girl, she will even beam you up to see Captain Kirk and Scotty.

    What I find most amusing is some think they're "critiquing" a guide. No, you are critiquing the comments of Dom Fi's. There's a difference. Just because they are not you own comments, doesn't make them inaccurate. Only you can define who you are, and no one is suggesting otherwise.

  8. #128
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Fi is a little tougher; it's not specifically creative. It's a decision-making process: constantly generating emotional associations over time, and then when a situation calls for a decision we suddenly winnow dozens or perhaps even hundreds of competing associations and related concerns (values) until a decision is made. At its best, the final decision may involve a synthesis or a compromise between opposing values. But in any case the process itself is going to seems somewhat "ineffable" because: a) the process is so personalized (the experiences and associations and values of each Fi-Dom are different); b) it's largely unconscious (the associative process works best in the unconscious, where associative shortcuts are easily formed); c) and the end result--the actual decision that is reached--is going to vary so widely from one Fi-Dom to the next.
    This is quite beautiful. For me-not having anywhere near the precision in Fi that an Fi dom would have-it feels like trying to do math with handfuls of pudding. But if feels like a process of weighing potentialities against other potentialities and trying to identify which path forward will result in the best outcome=least pain for others.


    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    What do Fe users "have" if they don't possess core values to utilize in an evaluative way? A common script? This is a serious question, and I want to know your thoughts.

    But, you are saying that the ends justify the means, which is a broad-scope core value. Do you think all Fe doms share it? Is that the nature of Fe? A set of basic tenets, with no real deviations?
    Wouldnt Fe calibrate against external objective standards? When I use Te, I strongly desire some sort for standard to measure my efforts against, given the Si flavor. Metrics. Percentages, goals, checkmarks, lists. I assume Fe must have an external set of ...some sort of external something. Maybe for the Si users it is external social mores? I dunno what the Ni users would do at all...

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post

    FineLine, your parallel between Ni and Fi was excellent. theoretically Fi should parallel Ti in terms of process as well.
    My thoughts as well. Since Fi is a subjective judging function, it seems like the associations mentioned would actually be more like what you would see as an INTP analyzes a logical problem and seeks to solve the new problem via comparison with the old understood logical principles.

  9. #129
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    ^ i imagine i'm one of the "some" you're referring to, and, at least personally, i am critiquing the guide, not the comments. the compilation, specifically.

    the problem in my eyes is not that the comments are inaccurate. the problem is that the comments are not in line with the categories, and, therefore, the Fi guide is not in line with the guides for the other functions.

    it looks like this to me:

    letters
    a
    8
    9
    pear

    numbers
    5
    6
    banana
    coconut

    and so on.

    given that i'm obviously not opposed to the author, or all the guides - i thought the Ne section was awesome - and i like that you posted this, jag - is it a problem for myself and others to feel this way (assuming that this is others' contention as well) and to desire to discuss that?

    i get that Fi likes to seem whiny and self-absorbed sometimes - and i suppose it's "typical" for the Fi users to want to be the "special", "misunderstood" ones, but this time, i think it's legit. having poor category-content matchups isn't going to further anyone's understanding.

    @ slowriot - i'll work on trying to do that

  10. #130
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Fi likes to seem whiny and self-absorbed
    How about if I delete everything in the guide and just use that?
    Deal?

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