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  1. #111
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I just re-read the OP and for the life of me I still can't figure out what you people are bitching about.
    The way I see it, the description is too specific in a bad way, its... hmmm. It could probably describe one group of Fi users a lot more while describing another group of Fi users a lot less?

  2. #112
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    You know, I actually identify with most of what's posted in the original list, and what ever is missing or doesn't fit isn't sticking out enough for it to be problematic, and I don't see the list as especially negative, honestly.

    This reminds me of Every INFPs Favorite Person Who Shall Not Be Named who once told me that people actually are more consciously aware of their auxillary function than their dom function because the dom function is such a part of how one sees and experiences the world. This means that people probably see their dom function with less clarity even though they use it better, or at least more strongly.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    You know, I actually identify with most of what's posted in the original list, and what ever is missing or doesn't fit isn't sticking out enough for it to be problematic, and I don't see the list as especially negative, honestly.

    This reminds me of Every INFPs Favorite Person Who Shall Not Be Named who once told me that people actually are more consciously aware of their auxillary function than their dom function because the dom function is such a part of how one sees and experiences the world. This means that people probably see their dom function with less clarity even though they use it better, or at least more strongly.
    Yeah, according to MBTI theory, the auxiliary is our primary outlet for fostering others. This seems strange in light of the extraverted type, since it would be their introverted function that grounds itself with others. In other words, what MBTI calls the dominant function would tend to be egocentric, while the aux would tend to be exocentric. If a function is exocentric, then it makes sense that the subject would be able to observe and control it in relation to others.

  4. #114
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I don't have much difficulty understanding feelings/values. I hear that about Fi often, but I don't identify. Picasso once said "Great artists steal" - and I'll carry that into other areas (not that I'm great in any way, but hopefully you get the point). If Fi is some realm of primordial ideals, then I'll seek whoever has tapped into some of it. I can always stand on other people's shoulders to find some self- understanding or how to articulate what I feel within too. There are thousands of religions, philosophers, rockstars, poets, characters, myths, storywriters.. whatever. I'm here to learn more from all of it than be original or to reinvent the wheel.

  5. #115
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Is it really the best use of one's time to sit and analyze one's brain until it vaporizes and settles at the base of their skull as primordial goop? It's Fi. It's not an all-or-nothing depiction of one's entire thought process; nor is it an overarching rule for behavior. The behaviors noted in the description were only abbreviated tendencies. Proteanmix has already noted this, so why the clench on absolute perfection?
    Why the defensive attitude towards any criticism? There are shorter descriptions out there that do a better job; expectations are NOT too high. The criticizers of the criticizers avoid acknowledging the reoccurring point most of the critiques have included; that point being that the description focuses on behaviors & formed conclusions and not the actual cognitive process that leads to those. The is a especially problem when describing an introverted function. There is all this mention of personal values, the inner life, and belief systems, when those are products of Fi. To describe how the values & belief systems are formed & what the inner life actually is would be Fi. Great detail is not needed to comment on that process. I suppose conceding to that point would get in the way of making snarky remarks though.

    And this is a typology message board, so you shouldn't be shocked when people actually want to discuss typology, instead of just making cutesy posts (as if that is a good use of time).
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Why the defensive attitude towards any criticism? There are shorter descriptions out there that do a better job; expectations are NOT too high. The criticizers of the criticizers avoid acknowledging the reoccurring point most of the critiques have included; that point being that the description focuses on behaviors & formed conclusions and not the actual cognitive process that leads to those. The is a especially problem when describing an introverted function. There is all this mention of personal values, the inner life, and belief systems, when those are products of Fi. To describe how the values & belief systems are formed & what the inner life actually is would be Fi. Great detail is not needed to comment on that process. I suppose conceding to that point would get in the way of making snarky remarks though.

    And this is a typology message board, so you shouldn't be shocked when people actually want to discuss typology, instead of just making cutesy posts (as if that is a good use of time).
    I'm not shocked or surprised. Criticize it all you like, no one's stopping you.

    If the subjective processes of Fi are ineffable, and you are attempting to express what it is first-hand, then you are wasting your time (unless you just want to limply peddle around your own values for your own reasons). The best one can hope for is to grasp the essential nature of the process from a categorical approach, which denies the exact symbols of the individual, but demonstrates the fact that symbolic evaluations are being formed. The only way one can clarify this point is by a more objective insight into cognitive patterns, either by the subject or an onlooker. It is no wonder why these descriptions seem to focus on behavior. While they aren't terribly extensive, they deliver.

    While the underlying processes are inexpressible, definitions of the function are not.

    Most of the whiny responses in this thread are due to an incongruousness between the dissenters' values and the definition. The two things being contrasted are not tantamount to each other.

  7. #117
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    I'm not shocked or surprised. Criticize it all you like, no one's stopping you.

    If the subjective processes of Fi are ineffable, and you are attempting to express what it is first-hand, then you are wasting your time (unless you just want to limply peddle around your own values for your own reasons). The best one can hope for is to grasp the essential nature of the process from a categorical approach, which denies the exact symbols of the individual, but demonstrates the fact that symbolic evaluations are being formed. The only way one can clarify this point is by a more objective insight into cognitive patterns, either by the subject or an onlooker. It is no wonder why these descriptions seem to focus on behavior. While they aren't terribly extensive, they deliver.

    While the underlying processes are inexpressible, definitions of the function are not.

    Most of the whiny responses in this thread are due to an incongruousness between the dissenters' values and the definition. The two things being contrasted are not tantamount to each other.
    Eh, it seems here you are limply peddling your own values. Of course the Fi member response will be an evaluative one; you're clearly not above it. My evaluation stands.

    Demonstrating symbolic evaluations can help, but is not needed most; simply stating these take place is needed. It's that simple. The "essential nature" is lost when relegating it to behavioral patterns. It makes the process appear non-existent, which is the battle Fi faces to begin with. This is how people confuse Feelings with emotions; they hear about values & beliefs, see behavior, but don't understand what these stem from when the process is so internal. Behavioral patterns only clarify as illustrative examples when paired with a description of the process.

    So, no, these kinds of descriptions don't deliver.

    There would likely be no (or less) "whiny responses" if an attempt to define exact symbols was NOT made. That would allow for the subjectiveness of Fi to shine through more clearly, as it's a process which results in very different conclusions in individuals. Here, we see specific conclusions, which are fine as general patterns, but fail when shown on their own & not accompanied by some clearer indication of the process.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  8. #118
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    I think what tater was creatively trying to say is that even if an Fi users values are in opposition to anothers then it is still 'Fi' as the underlying mindset is the same and that the base description can only deal with a generic classification, not specifics. I think I can support that opinion.

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I think what tater was creatively trying to say is that even if an Fi users values are in opposition to anothers then it is still 'Fi' as the underlying mindset is the same and that the base description can only deal with a generic classification, not specifics. I think I can support that opinion.

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I think what tater was creatively trying to say is that even if an Fi users values are in opposition to anothers then it is still 'Fi' as the underlying mindset is the same and that the base description can only deal with a generic classification, not specifics. I think I can support that opinion.
    Yes but this concept isn't Fi specific. It's cognitive function specific where values in this example, are part of the database, and cognitive functions are the overarching processes.

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