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  1. #91
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Just to add though, Fi has an aesthetic, somewhat mundane component too. It's not all morals. It could play out in how one might cook something.. where they forgo any objective Te decision making, and just wing it on how they make a spaghetti sauce. Thomson never uses the word platonic, but that's basically where I'm seeing she's heading. Not to be dramatic, but lets say there's an ethereal, "quintessential" spaghetti sauce in the universal, platonic realm. Fi is either consciously or subconsciously tapping into it's ideal about it (in conjunction with other functions of course). No one ever gets close to actual perfection, but that may be how they're approaching it. It might enable them to have a new take on spaghetti sauce than another type (hopefully, a good one). It could show up in the difference on how an INFP writer chooses his words compared to an INTP or ENTJ. It could be the choice making involved in an ISFP's piano playing. I think it's this stuff that distinguishes them too.. possibly more than their morals sometimes.
    Yes, I agree with this. It's not necessarily all heavy stuff we're evaluating based on a premise of an inner ideal. Values seem like just one aspect of this inner ideal; they are more clearly defined concepts, branching from intense, preverbal feelings of the ideal ("the fathomless store of primordial images" - Jung). It's like: ideals in form of abstract feeling -> defined values -> adequate expression.

    In other cases, there's no need to translate into a mental concept (which INFPs particularly like to do), but to let the feeling guide in a process, where even everyday mundane activities become creative in striving to meet this ideal. I think this is very evident in ISFPs. I watched my step-dad tape a box up to ship, and it had to be packed "perfectly"; he was really caught up in it. Maybe this is why some ISFPs don't relate to the word "values", as feeling often goes straight to form, where an INFP may be content to theorize.

    The imagination helps define these feelings also - there are mental images to connect them to, to relate them to something definable. In this way, values are affected by the external, because they have to be given some context outside of the inner world to even be defined in a comprehensible way.

    I remember in past threads other INFPs saying they have a shift in feeling tones nearly constantly, but it's so second nature that it's not really necessarily to analyze all the time. You can break it down if you want to, but that's only done to communicate it to others; I valued aesthetics long before I could put it in those words.

    I can see in this cooking analogy how these Feeling ideals manifest in trivial matters (especially since I cook that way ). Of course, the IXFP's Se or Ne influences the manner of expression and how the external is perceived, both shaping how the Feelings manifest and how they are defined on the value level.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  2. #92
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    "Rules have to feel right to me or I will ignore them."
    That was from an ISFP or INFP. It's from a section entitled: FROM THE INSIDE. That's how those particular people felt - on the inside.

    sounds like it is spoken by an ignorant, uncaring, insensitive savage.
    Just because you may not agree with that particular Fi Dom, doesn't mean they don't have the the right to express what is true of themselves. Fi is that subjective. A Dom Fi could be a terrorist bomber. You might not like that either, but it's who they are. That's their own personal belief system, not yours. And just because they differ from you, doesn't mean it's not Fi. Be careful about denying others their rights to express who they are - if you head down that slippery slope then you better be willing to give up your own right to do the same.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopelandic View Post
    • Is the only process with a truly nonnegotiable element. No.



  4. #94
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I do feel like PeaceBaby's insight above has value. The content of the values Fi-doms adopt play a big role in how they appear externally. Fi is not inherently that externally adaptive—it lacks the utilitarian nature of Fe and Te, for example. Therefore, the willingness to appear more Fe-ishly "other oriented" depends to a large degree in whether one's values demand it of you.

    As I've said before, I think Fi-doms are clearly not entirely detached from their early social environment. We tend to adopt ideals that others may dismiss as unrealistic or unduly burdensome. This means that ideals such as "put others first" and "always act to make the world a better place" and "never hurt others if it can be avoided" may well be adopted as core values—especially if one is raised in a religious environment.

    So, while it's true that Fi is a very internal process, the ideals it adopts do affect external behavior. Because we tend to continuously evaluate ourselves against our ideals, we tend to be hyper-aware of the areas where we fall short of those ideals. Therefore, it makes sense that someone who places a lot of value on community, working through issues, harmony with others and promoting a positive emotional environment is going to disagree with statements like "Rules have to feel right to me or I will ignore them." and "If someone affronts my values I will cut them off so quickly they will just be gone."

    I also think Enneagram type plays a role here, too. An INFP 4 sp is going to have a very different relationship to social groups than an INFP 9 so.

    So, I agree with PeaceBaby that for a section that claims to be "what it's like to make decisions through one's Introverted Feeling" the section feels very external and so may clash pretty violently with certain Fi-doms' values. I don't think it really captures "what it's like to make decisions" as an Fi-dom. It's more like "some examples of decisions that may pop out the far end of the decision making process."


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I remember in past threads other INFPs saying they have a shift in feeling tones nearly constantly, but it's so second nature that it's not really necessarily to analyze all the time. You can break it down if you want to, but that's only done to communicate it to others; I valued aesthetics long before I could put it in those words.
    I think this [the bloded] may be different for the 5 INFP. There exists a constant desire to understand these feeling tones as well as be able to readily comminucate them, if the need comes up. I know a problem I have in particular is that when I can't express my inner feelings/values in a tanglible way (this frustration typically coming from verbal communication) I feel as if they are somehow invalidated. The mind and heart conflict is so much more distinct in us, where heart forms the tones and ideals while the head tries to assess their meaning and sometimes their value just to avoid frivolity or meaninglessness.

    Anyway, good post.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    [...]Reading through the Decision-making List - it's not wrong for how I may act, but it doesn't describe the actual thinking that goes on behind it. I mean, I don't see this as a process: "My personal space is very important to me. Please don't invade my physical and emotional space.". That's all well & true, but that's not how my mind works out a feeling; that is a finished feeling, an existing value. [...]
    Of course, in my latest post I was just responding to PeaceBaby's query. I was trying to establish that we Fi-doms use a completely different cognitive process (Decision-making List) from that used by Fe-doms. So we don't need to covet their List.

    But I agree with you that the overall description of Fi in the OP is incomplete. The "Decision-making List" for Fi describes the point where Fi and the world come into contact. Behind that, I assume there's a deeper, more contemplative layer where we work out what we believe with respect to a given issue. Neither the OP nor the "Decision-making List" really seem to show how that contemplative layer works.

    As you suggested elsewhere in your post, the description of Ti-Dom (yet to be posted) may provide some additional info on the contemplative, decision-making part of Fi-Dom. Or maybe people with Fi-Aux (ENFP and ESFP) can help out. Supposedly one's Auxiliary functions are more accessible (more conscious) than one's Dominant functions. So an Fi-Aux may have a better sense of how Fi works on the mundane, day-to-day level.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    [...] As I've said before, I think Fi-doms are clearly not entirely detached from their early social environment. We tend to adopt ideals that others may dismiss as unrealistic or unduly burdensome. This means that ideals such as "put others first" and "always act to make the world a better place" and "never hurt others if it can be avoided" may well be adopted as core values—especially if one is raised in a religious environment. [...]
    I basically agree. I mentioned a subset of INFPs "who see themselves as people-pleasers and who might be able to mimic Fe-Doms to some extent." I think that's what we're talking about here. If it's religious values being plugged into the Fi-Dom Decision-making List that specifically causes that, then so be it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    [...] So, I agree with PeaceBaby that for a section that claims to be "what it's like to make decisions through one's Introverted Feeling" the section feels very external and so may clash pretty violently with certain Fi-doms' values. I don't think it really captures "what it's like to make decisions" as an Fi-dom. It's more like "some examples of decisions that may pop out the far end of the decision making process."
    As I said in my response to OrangeAppled, I agree that the description of Fi in the OP is incomplete. I agree that it focuses on "the far end of the decision making process" rather than the contemplative layer earlier along. The main point that I was trying to make is that we reach our individual destinations using our own Fi-Dom process; we don't need to appropriate the Fe-dom process from the Fe-Doms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I do feel like PeaceBaby's insight above has value. The content of the values Fi-doms adopt play a big role in how they appear externally.
    Having clarified the above points, I do agree with you that a discussion about the varieties of subsets of Fi-Doms brings up some interesting features of the Fi-Dom process versus the Fe-Dom process. Presumably you can plug very different sets of core values into the Decision-making List for Fe-Doms and you'll get roughly the same result: an Eveready Bunny of Hospitality and Goodwill. But if you plug different sets of core values into the Decision-making List for Fi-Doms, you'll get lots of different types and subsets of Fi-Doms.

    Personally, I've always registered that there are many kinds of INFPs, from "fluffy bunnies" to peevish grumblers to raging anarchists. That huge range of subsets always makes it difficult to agree on one set of characteristics that covers all of us.

    By comparison, I would be curious as to whether Fe-Doms register the same kind of broad variety of subsets in ENFJs and/or ESFJs. Frankly, I tend to register those types as pretty homogeneous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Fi is not inherently that externally adaptive—it lacks the utilitarian nature of Fe and Te, for example. Therefore, the willingness to appear more Fe-ishly "other oriented" depends to a large degree in whether one's values demand it of you.
    Good observation. Yeah, I think this is at the center of it. I'd be curious to see whether Ti-Doms and Te-Doms do the same thing: Show similarity in the end result for Te-Doms versus a wide variety of subsets for Ti-Doms.

  7. #97
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Fi..Fi...Fiiiiiiiii....Fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iii....Fiiiiish bun ! Not to be confused with meat bun or fish bum !

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzzjgBAaWZw"].[/YOUTUBE]
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #98
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour
    I don't think [the Fi section] really captures "what it's like to make decisions" as an Fi-dom. It's more like "some examples of decisions that may pop out the far end of the decision making process."
    that's excellently expressed.

  9. #99
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Just because you may not agree with that particular Fi Dom, doesn't mean they don't have the the right to express what is true of themselves. Fi is that subjective. A Dom Fi could be a terrorist bomber. You might not like that either, but it's who they are. That's their own personal belief system, not yours. And just because they differ from you, doesn't mean it's not Fi. Be careful about denying others their rights to express who they are - if you head down that slippery slope then you better be willing to give up your own right to do the same.
    I accept their right to say it, and feel it, and live it, but I don't accept being personally defined by someone else's words.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #100
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I accept their right to say it, and feel it, and live it, but I don't accept being personally defined by someone else's words.
    People don't have to accept being personally defined by your words, either.

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