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  1. #1
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Default Fi, Fe and the concept of Personal Integrity

    Stephen Carter writes that integrity requires three steps: "discerning what is right and what is wrong; acting on what you have discerned, even at personal cost; and saying openly that you are acting on your understanding of right from wrong." He regards integrity as being distinct from honesty.
    --Carter, Stephen L (1996). Integrity. New York: BasicBooks/HarperCollins. pp. 7, 10

    To me, that reads as written by an Fi-er. Or, Fe-ers, do you feel it could equally represent what your concept of integrity is?

    To all: do you relate more to "an eye for an eye" or "turn the other cheek" ... or does it depend on the circumstance or situation?

    To all: do you see moral principles as having an internal constancy?

    What does the phrase "personal integrity" mean to you?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #2
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    I though Fi was about "good or bad" not "right or wrong".
    Right or wrong is T based according to the theory of Typology.

    I am not a pushover nor do I practice revenge.

    Integrity is to me, is about being consistent in who you are. It's about holding yourself accountable to who you are.
    It also means (to me) that you never become comfortable with who you are so that it leads to complacency and/or stagnation.
    Integirty says "what can I do to change this situation?"
    Integrity never points the finger outward.

    That being said.. sometimes I fail my own sense of self integrity.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    Many T types feel very strongly about right and wrong, which may sometimes just be different words for good vs bad.

    Eye for an Eye or Turn the Other Cheek? Depends. I actually am not against eye for an eye for crimes of unmistakable cruelty/intention. I'm not against the death penalty. It baffles me when I read about people forgiving the person who killed their children. I think sometimes it's easier to stay angry and sometimes it's easier to forgive.

    Personal integrity is about being stubborn to what one individually values in his/herself, in another person, in humanity as a whole. And sticking to those values even if a majority of people believes otherwise and disagrees. Some of these values of mine are extremely consistent, some morph and develop with new information and new experience. Some consistency is good but rigid integrity can also be your blind-side and make it difficult for you to keep taking in new information and keep developing and learning. It's always worthwhile, in my opinion, to leave room for new information.

    I have my values but I can't say I always do the right thing, or I always do the good thing. Sometimes I act like a jerk. I have done things I am not proud of and I will again.

    This may be a fuzzy idea but people with personal integrity are always challenged by others because some parts of their integrity is so separate from societal demands or beliefs. It doesn't make any rational sense for them to believe in such an idea, it only causes trouble for the people around him/her, but nothing can persuade them otherwise because they have developed these values, these characteristics of integrity that are so personal that they stick by them no matter what.

    For example, ENTJs value honesty and being genuine and that may be considered a part of their personal integrity. Say he is a businessman who really has little use for honesty or being genuine; maybe it's more bothersome to his co-workers and bosses but that won't change his mind. He will still be honest and genuine to a fault, almost to his detrimental. He made a conscious choice that honesty/being genuine is one of the most important traits about him, about other people, about humanity as a whole and he sticks by it.

    I almost want to say personal integrity exists only if there is conflict and challenge from the outside world.

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    That sounds like Fi yes - personal subjective moral discernment.

    As an Fe user, personal morals and being consistent to them aren't something that ever consume my thought.

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    I think eye for an eye and turn the other cheek are both overly simplistic. For a thinking person, there is correction in discipline, which would be the ultimate point of "eye for an eye" not mindless vengeance, but retribution which protects others from further harm, or teaches the offender a lesson. I think that just letting people get away with things that are hurtful is highly immoral.

    On the other hand, it's equally important to forgive. Turn the other cheek to me means that ultimately forgiveness must happen and to continue being angry or holding a grudge is a mistake. But to me, if you are passive to the point that you're allowing a tyrant to destroy others, that's just as immoral as mindless vengeance.

    Moral consistency is to be strived for as the ideal goal, but all people make mistakes. I fail my own integrity at times, and feel bad about doing so.

    I disagree that personal morals don't ever consume an Fe dom/aux because I've observed it in practice. XYZ are you an Fe tert or inferior?

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    I'm actuallly Fe auxiliary (INFJ).

    Fe as a values based discernment function is more focused on reading and moving the external dynamics (objective values) - it speaks the same language as Fi in values based terms, but is like Te in it's role in the psyche (Ti has the same role as Fi weighing things happening in real-time and resonating with them or not, but is logic based).

  7. #7
    Senior Member Noon's Avatar
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    Integrity to me is simply acting in accordance with one's conscience in each moment. I definitely agree with Carter in more ways than one.

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    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    Integrity to me is simply acting in accordance with one's conscience in each moment. I definitely agree with Carter in more ways than one.
    And how do you discern what your conscience is telling you? Is it a feeling?

    How often do you sense any contradiction in your actions? Is that troubling to you?

    If your conscience changes, moment to moment, and thus presumably affects how you react, do you see any overall consistency over time?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #9
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Interesting. I see nothing in that statement as Fi or Fe. Just F. Nowhere does he mention the source of right and wrong. Which is the difference.



  10. #10
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    ^ interesting point

    and fun fact - "turn the other cheek" actually meant, at the time of the origin of the phrase, to demand equality. the left hand couldn't be used for slapping because it was unclean, and the only other option was to backhand, which was a low-class move, or to slap the offender elsewhere, which was an action taken by equals. so to turn the other cheek put the punisher in a dilemma. as for relating, i think eye for an eye is fair, but stupid. no one should be punished if they don't "turn the other cheek" when they've been wronged, but that's not going to make it a better world, either.

    to me, personal integrity is doing what i feel is right in a situation. my one essential moral commandment is to not harm people, so basically my understanding of integrity revolves around that. it gets tricky at places like my part-time job, where the things i'm asked to do often revolve around making money. my biggest challenges at work are how i can be successful in terms of meeting what is asked of me but at the same time not abandon my personal principles. if i'm asked to choose between the two, then i'll be putting in my two weeks' notice. or more like quitting in a dramatic outburst detailing how whatever i was asked to adhere to was wrong and really fundamentally harming both the company and everyone involved. :blushing:

    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    Integrity to me is simply acting in accordance with one's conscience in each moment. I definitely agree with Carter in more ways than one.
    ditto. for me, discerning what my conscience says is just a sort of "knowing". i guess it's informed by emotions. the right actions will make me feel good and proud and the wrong actions will make me feel funny in the pit of my stomach and like i want to hide.

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