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  1. #21
    sophiloist Kaizer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post
    There have been MANY occasions where he has done something/made a comment that has made me turn at him and say, "Oh dear god, I'm dating my mother."
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  2. #22
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    As a mom I can relate to this from the other side.
    My daughter (mid 20's) is an ENTP. Very sure of herself.
    My son is 21 and I'm not sure about what his type is. I've had to have a chat to him about not alwayss having girlfriends that he is "rescuing" - relationships should be helping him too.
    Their dad died when they were 9 and 7. My son wouldn't wear pyjamas to bed - wore his clothes - when I asked him why he told me he was the man of the house and needed to be ready just in case something happened - broke my heart to hear this from a 7-year-old.
    I suspect they found me not a particularly fantastic parent - but they have both turned out OK - so I can't have done too bad (I hope).

  3. #23
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    Your son sounds like an Fe dom.

  4. #24
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    My mom is ISFJ.

    She has a heart of gold and speaks kindly of others, and is very good at remembering special days and things that particular people like... although sometimes she doesn't update her data banks very quickly. (She is still occasionally buying me store-made blueberry muffins that I don't like ever since the recipe switched years ago... but she's kind of a 'duck and run' gift giver, so it's hard to talk to her directly about it without sounding ungrateful.) She's also very good at maintaining stability.

    But she also hates and fears conflict to the point of not going there when she needs to; and she's also very set in her beliefs, while also not being a very rational thinker at all; so although she'll try to listen, it's very very difficult to communicate anything of complexity or anything that doesn't align with her prior beliefs, and even if she seems to be giving cues that she gets it and agrees with you, she'll go right back to where she was before next time it comes up and it leaves you wondering if, last time, she didn't really get it but was just trying to keep things peaceful.

    When I was younger, she would make sacrifices for me that I didn't want, and she would take refusal of her gifts hard -- although she wouldn't make a public scene, she'd just disappear... and later I'd find out she had been crying in her bedroom. So I was torn between pity and anger. She definitely FELT like a martyr in her self-perception, but she also has that resilient mindset driving in part by her religiousness where she doesn't care how she feels, she still does what she thinks is right and kind and good. Which can be a good thing or a bad thing... since continually ignoring one's inner emotional barometer can be self-destructive after awhile.

    So my relationship with my mother is weird; I respect and love her, and appreciate how she has given herself to her family as best she could, but at the same time she was never a model for the sort of woman I want to be and can be, she and I just are not much alike except maybe in the shyness area (which I've overcome in online arenas and some public ones) and also just not wanting to engage in conflict. I felt like she was far more fragile than me.

    In terms of its effect on me?

    I learn and I adapt. I had to learn to adapt to my mother. Early in life, I withdrew in order to preserve my autonomy, not use her, and be independent... but I realize now I think that hurt her in some ways, and I wish I had been okay with letting her care for me more and being more overly appreciative of it. I do have some negative reactions to (1) people who always do nice stuff but never speak their mind even when I can tell they don't like something, (2) people who give gifts without accepting gifts themselves, as well as give gifts that AREN'T actually suitable for the persron but interact in ways that prevent the error from ever easily being corrected, (3) people who dodge necessary conflict to everyone's detriment, and (4) people who leave you feeling bad when you feel you can't do what they want... low-level manipulation, even if it was not entirely conscious on their part. And rigid Fe standards are part of that bad feeling; I don't like following rules just because they exist nor being judged for not following them, I like them to make sense. I also (5) consistently carry with me a fear of not being understood, especially with people I love, and thus being vulnerable.

    Then again, it gave me an appreciation for structure, and an understanding of Fe perspective, and it forced me to try grasp why she is the way she is and even work on finding new ways in myself to accommodate the things that are just her even if they aren't me. I also value her fidelity, her somewhat naive but resilient endurance in what I see to be hopeless situations, her faith, and her ability to still try to love people she has no way of understanding. (My pathway to love is often THROUGH understanding.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #25
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Wow!! My mother is an ESFP.. and your childhood sounds quite familiar to mine.. We were always moving and being introduced to the new patriarch,
    By the time I was 16 I had had lived in 5 different cities and I estimate about 12-15 different dwellings. I was "raised" by 5 different men.
    We were so impoverished at times I slept on the floor. And things like the power would be shut off and all.
    My mom meant well.. But she just couldn't help putting herself first and she had awful taste in men..
    Lots of abuse.
    The thing is, I am not sure how much of it affected me. I have never really had a problem with my mother consciously nor my upbringing.
    I just figured I have always had a choice and have made lots of bad ones.
    Also.. some of the stories I heard from friends about what went on in their houses, made mine seem pretty normal in a fucked up way.

    My mom has always been a kind of hero to me.
    Go Figure.

    And she evetually grew up and got a BA is Psychology and an MA in Sociology .. and she is a teacher now.
    stayed with the same man for 25 years and adopted 3 children and my is also in legal custody of my sister's kid.

    My Hypnotherapist said my adult relationships did way more damage to me than my childhood.

    My mom is all right as far as I am concerned.
    The utilities and money stuff didn't bother me much. The moving was kind of hard, but not the end of the world. Never knowing what people I was going to have in my life, having my status go from child to peer to child depending on whether there was a man around or not was what was really hard for me.

    My SJ brother, though, I guess the money related stuff was pretty hard on him.

    My SJ grandmother could be as annoying as heck, but she was the rock of my childhood and knowing she was always there was a really good thing for me.

    My mom has grown up a little. She held a job for over three years before she retired. She moved in with us after the last divorce and other than the crazy Right wing religious stuff and Muslim hate, she has been pleasant to have around. And God knows she's much better at keeping up with the housework than I'll ever be.

    However, she didn't actually consciously try to screw with my head much. She was amazing with discipline and authority most of the time -- she didn't try to control everything I did or give me guilt trips or expect me to be anything in particular (except not to make her life bad). She always knew where I was and who I was with. I absolutely tried to discipline my kids by her pattern because she was amazing with that. She always treated my brothers and I like humans -- I have been shocked to learn just how unusual that is.

    My husband and I moved a lot while the kids were younger and were pretty poor for years, so I know it can be hard to manage those things. But I was so freaked out by the changing dads that I was pretty careful about dating and insisted on premarital counseling and stuff. That was one thing I didn't want my kids put through. I'm sure they have plenty of stuff to complain about, though. I was pretty depressed when they were little -- totally overwhelmed by having four little kids and no money. I'm suspicious and overprotective and don't like leaving the house if I don't have to -- especially when it involves crowds and stuff. I won't miss an important event like a band/choir concert, but I'm not going to any title one events or fund raising festivals.

    Hopefully they will do better than we did, but still allow us access to our grandkids.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #26
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    My mother is predictably ISFJ. She is nice and incredibly caring and devoted, which is very fortunate, and she's actually pretty rational and open to most new ideas and accepting. At times, though, particularly when she's stressed or is trying to organise something, she can be very irrational and angry and then does this weird thing where she yells at us for being useless, and if we point out any sort of incongruency with what she's saying and doing, she says "Oh yeah, I know! I'm the most horrible person in the world!" or something like that and goes into this big guilt trip self-pity/self-imposed martyrdom thing (like she does good things that inconvenience her whether or not we want or care about it and complains the whole time, saying how she has to do everything etc.). But when she's not doing that, she's friendly and congenial. She's surprisingly accepting of me and supports me in most any choice I make, saying I should go with my passions. She basically spends most of the time humbly serving others. She is very avoidant of conflict though and will act nice around people she hates only to whine about them later.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    When I was younger, she would make sacrifices for me that I didn't want, and she would take refusal of her gifts hard -- although she wouldn't make a public scene, she'd just disappear... and later I'd find out she had been crying in her bedroom. So I was torn between pity and anger. She definitely FELT like a martyr in her self-perception, but she also has that resilient mindset driving in part by her religiousness where she doesn't care how she feels, she still does what she thinks is right and kind and good. Which can be a good thing or a bad thing... since continually ignoring one's inner emotional barometer can be self-destructive after awhile.

    So my relationship with my mother is weird; I respect and love her, and appreciate how she has given herself to her family as best she could, but at the same time she was never a model for the sort of woman I want to be and can be, she and I just are not much alike except maybe in the shyness area (which I've overcome in online arenas and some public ones) and also just not wanting to engage in conflict. I felt like she was far more fragile than me.

    In terms of its effect on me?

    I learn and I adapt. I had to learn to adapt to my mother. Early in life, I withdrew in order to preserve my autonomy, not use her, and be independent... but I realize now I think that hurt her in some ways, and I wish I had been okay with letting her care for me more and being more overly appreciative of it. I do have some negative reactions to (1) people who always do nice stuff but never speak their mind even when I can tell they don't like something, (2) people who give gifts without accepting gifts themselves, as well as give gifts that AREN'T actually suitable for the persron but interact in ways that prevent the error from ever easily being corrected, (3) people who dodge necessary conflict to everyone's detriment, and (4) people who leave you feeling bad when you feel you can't do what they want... low-level manipulation, even if it was not entirely conscious on their part. And rigid Fe standards are part of that bad feeling; I don't like following rules just because they exist nor being judged for not following them, I like them to make sense. I also (5) consistently carry with me a fear of not being understood, especially with people I love, and thus being vulnerable.
    Is that sort of thing common among ISFJs, especially mums? They always need to do things for others but at the same time need those acts to be appreciated and get upset if we don't want her help? Because I can really relate to that experience with my mum, as I've mentioned in my post. It's sort of a blessing and a curse at the same time for me.
    JiNe
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  8. #28
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    In my experience with average ISFJs, they really want to give selflessly to those they love; but if they start to feel taken advantage of or they are not shown a response to their commitment, this can develop into disappointment, hurt, lack of self-worth, pessimism/dourness, martrydom, cynicism, etc.

    It's the introversion doing it -- being within the internal world, and all acts start with and end with the individual. It leads to thinking they should just be able to do what is obviously right regardless of how they feel [treated]. So now you have someone who is very very good at giving to others but is almost voiceless reagarding the expression of their own needs and thus typically disappointed because some people just won't respond until they get cues that a response is desired. IMO they almost seem to need people to read their minds because they see it as improper to ask for things they want or need.

    ESFJs IMO are actually much easier to deal with in the sense they'll typically get in your face to let you know when you're not giving in the ways they think you should be; yes, it might produce an overt conflict and seem invasive, but at least the problem will hopefully get resolved rather than festering and creating an entrenched negative behavior pattern that will be very hard to break later.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #29
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I think my mom is INFP, but perhaps ISFP. FP are her strongest letters. She's also crazy fundamentalist christian in most ways (more so when we were gorwing up, though), and I clashed with her a LOT when I was growing up over the ridiculous (imo) rules that she made us follow for religious and/or overptrotective reasons. She's also very impractical with money, but with good intentions - it's the idealism saying she has to get "the best" and "everything" until she runs out of money 3 days into the month. She always said "god will provide" - so she didn't have to budget or make difficult choices, it was just "buy things until you're out of money, then god'll do the rest". She's been clinically depressed for as long as I've known her, and she may have (had?) some schizophrenic tendencies (undiagnosed but several symptoms and her mom is diagnosed - but it could just be issues from her own very messed-up and over-religious childhood). She thought (thinks?) god talks to her personally, telling her what to do. Try reasoningwith that!

    It did negatively affect my perception of the FP types, especially at first, but it's hard to say whether the chicken or the egg came first - NFP is the type with the least mutual understanding and appreciation (with me personally, I mean), I've found. We just tend to value different things and devalue each others' reasoning. I would predict they would be the most difficult type to live with for me, but it hasn't happened yet so maybe it would be fine. I am living with an isfp after all - but there the practicality is there, at least.

    I do get along well with my mom now - after a year or two of not living with her we mellowed out. Most of our fighting was over her ridiculous rules so while I have still gently disagreed with her sometimes over her rules for my sisters, it's not personal anymore (and it's not really as much a concern for the last sister living at home, who'll probably be moving out in a year or two anyway). So now I have coffee with my mom every month or so and we can actually talk about stuff, which is nice. She's either gotten less judgmental these days or learned to keep it to herself. Either way.
    I don't want to be rude, but your mum sounds a little crazy. I doubt I would be able to deal with that. i'd fight constantly.
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  10. #30
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Yeah that's pretty much how it went down. She's a lot less crazy these days which is why we get along - well, that and/or the crazy is less noticeable because I don't live with her!

    She did impress me by not making negative comments about me moving to an apartment with my bf when I invited her over (so no more illusion of "but they have separate rooms"), because she flipped out when my sister moved in with her bf a few years ago.
    -end of thread-

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