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Thread: FJ villains

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    An ENFJ rejects shared values when s/he is convinced their own idea of what the 'shared values' should be is better than the values that people around him/her seem to have. An ENFJ is far more likely, imo, to try to impose these 'better' values on others than an INFJ (an IxFJ is more likely to back off/feel more aversion for conflict).
    AN INFJ needs only to become connected either through deep friendship or romance with another INFJ for those rules to go out the window.
    It's called the "INFJ/INFJ impasse".
    You have described it before.

    I will gladly type it all out for you if you like, I do not have an online version , but for you. I will copy type it all down and post it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Disagree. The PM on this project I'm on at work is ESFJ. His boss' words shape his values here at work. Whatever the boss says is carried out in clear terms- you either with him or you're not.
    This is exactly how Fe works. It adheres to the values of the primary group, not necessarily to the people around them. So you have the FJ who carries the values his parents taught him, or what his faith teaches him, or what his primary peer group believes, or what his boss says should be carried out...it doesn't mean he (or she) agrees with the immediate people surrounding. To the contrary, the FJ can become quite pushy with emphasis on the values of HIS OR HER PRIMARY GROUP no matter what the current group might say, do, or believe.

    Fe flexes, but it doesn't flex to the point that it just goes along with ANYBODY to make them happy.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    An ENFJ rejects shared values when s/he is convinced their own idea of what the 'shared values' should be is better than the values that people around him/her seem to have. An ENFJ is far more likely, imo, to try to impose these 'better' values on others than an INFJ (an IxFJ is more likely to back off/feel more aversion for conflict).
    Agreed.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    WTF??? F is subjective period. It can be argued that T is subjective as well. All perception is filtered through a single human lens, all conclusions are unique to that perspective and that perspective alone, no matter how much it resembles something else. No two people can occupy the same space at the same time, so no version of events are seen from exactly the same vantage point, ever.
    Therefore everything is subjective. Objectivity can really only exist, when no perception is present.
    Right, but extroverted attitudes seek to be as objective as possible, at all times. That's what makes them extroverted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    You'll have to show me in writing beside your own. (Your reputation for being incorrect while insisting that you are not, precedes you I am afraid).
    That what your saying is correct. I would like to see Fe described as "not subjective" "because it's extroverted".
    On extroversion in general:

    Everyone is, admittedly, orientated by the data with which the outer world provides him ; yet we
    see that this may be the case in a way that is only relatively decisive. Because it is cold out of
    doors, one man is persuaded to wear his overcoat, another from a desire to become hardened
    finds this unnecessary; one man admires the new tenor because all the world admires him,
    another withholds his approbation not because he dislikes him but because in his view the
    subject of general admiration is not thereby proved to be admirable; one submits to [p. 417] a
    given state of affairs because his experience argues nothing else to be possible, another is
    convinced that, although it has repeated itself a thousand times in the same way, the thousand
    and first will be different. The [extrovert] is orientated by the objective data; the [introvert] reserves a
    view, which is, as it were, interposed between himself and the objective fact. Now, when the
    orientation to the object and to objective facts is so predominant that the most frequent and
    essential decisions and actions are determined, not by subjective values but by objective
    relations, one speaks of an extraverted attitude.
    When this is habitual, one speaks of an
    extraverted type. If a man so thinks, feels, and acts, in a word so lives, as to correspond directly
    with objective conditions and their claims, whether in a good sense or ill, he is extraverted.
    Psychological Types (C. G. Jung), page 4.

    On Extroverted Feeling:

    Feeling in the extraverted attitude is orientated by objective data, i.e. the object is the
    indispensable determinant of the kind of feeling. It agrees with objective values. If one has
    always known feeling as a subjective fact, the nature of extraverted feeling will not immediately
    be understood, since it has freed itself as fully as possible from the subjective factor, and has,
    instead, become wholly subordinated to the influence of the object. Even where it seems to show
    a certain independence of the quality of the concrete object, it is none the less under the spell of.
    traditional or generally valid standards of some sort.
    Psychological Types, page 19.
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  5. #35
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    I think FJ villains are quite common, they tend to take the form of politicians and manipulators. this is the type of villain that most disgusts me actually. insincere and completely lacking in integrity.

  6. #36
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    Hmmm..
    OK.. So who sets the tradition or standards?
    The standards of someone who has grown up in poverty will not be the same as those who grew up on snob hill.
    The standards of an atheist will not be the same as someone who is religious.
    I still cannot see how it's not subjective.
    My standards and values that I share with people aren't common. But this is the group I share values with.
    I reject the common values because they contradict the preached values.
    Now what??
    What happens to my Fe when all I can see is people not holding true to the shared values I was taught and adhere to?
    What happens when Independence becomes so prevalent that "community" becomes a catch phrase to describe strangers living in the same area as opposed to group of people co-existing for the greater good of everybody?
    My country is turning into the USA. My people are becoming "independent"
    My society is being over run by special interest. My values are archaic or too progressive, no one is even sure anymore.
    But don't tell me the contradictions don't exist.
    We need laws and police to impose these shared values . Everything else is "cliquey"
    You said it. "you are either with us or against us."
    This is what has changed around here.
    When I become one of the gang. I can't help becoming parody of it, because it's so hypocritical of the actual values that are supposed to exists between humanity based on humanity.

    AM I objective or subjective?

    I have become one of the gang and no one likes it.
    That's the wonder of parody.. It's get's noticed , it offends , but who is it really offending?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Hmmm..
    OK.. So who sets the tradition or standards?
    The standards of someone who has grown up in poverty will not be the same as those who grew up on snob hill.
    The standards of an atheist will not be the same as someone who is religious.
    I still cannot see how it's not subjective.
    My standards and values that I share with people aren't common. But this is the group I share values with.
    I reject the common values because they contradict the preached values.
    Now what??
    What happens to my Fe when all I can see is people not holding true to the shared values I was taught and adhere to?
    What happens when Independence becomes so prevalent that "community" becomes a catch phrase to describe strangers living in the same area as opposed to group of people co-existing for the greater good of everybody?
    My country is turning into the USA. My people are becoming "independent"
    My society is being over run by special interest. My values are archaic or too progressive, no one is even sure anymore.
    But don't tell me the contradictions don't exist.
    We need laws and police to impose these shared values . Everything else is "cliquey"
    You said it. "you are either with us or against us."
    This is what has changed around here.
    When I become one of the gang. I can't help becoming parody of it, because it's so hypocritical of the actual values that are supposed to exists between humanity based on humanity.

    AM I objective or subjective?
    Fe values can shift over time, they don't have to be the ones you grew up with (especially if you lack Si...lord knows I probably have more respect for certain traditions than some NFJs because those were the Si boxes I absorbed in my formative years and I feel comfortable and safe with them) ...however the nature of Fe is to reflect the primary group, whatever that group happens to be: your family, your political party, your church, your closest circle of friends, all of Germany, the Aryan race...anyway, you get the point. Fe values vary from person to person and can shift over time pending on perceptions of primary group and what ideas you as an FJ have about creating more harmony within the group.

    Even SFJs have original ideas about creating more harmony within their important respective groups, they don't necessarily all religiously follow what their parents taught them, either.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Fe values can shift over time, they don't have to be the ones you grew up with (especially if you lack Si...lord knows I probably have more respect for certain traditions than some NFJs because those were the Si boxes I absorbed in my formative years and I feel comfortable and safe with them) ...however the nature of Fe is to reflect the primary group, whatever that group happens to be: your family, your political party, your church, your closest circle of friends, all of Germany, the Aryan race...anyway, you get the point. Fe values vary from person to person and can shift over time pending on perceptions of primary group and what ideas you as an FJ have about creating more harmony within the group.

    Even SFJs have original ideas about creating more harmony within their important respective groups, they don't necessarily all religiously follow what their parents taught them, either.
    I get along spectacularly well with my friends and at work.
    I have no concept of family.. and maybe that is what is missing and why my Fe is broken?
    I do not really know what it means to have someones back and for them to have mine.
    I have been taught some very poor lessons.
    That's why we end up in therapy

    I"m socially awkward and have always been. Why does this confuse people so much?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Hmmm..
    OK.. So who sets the tradition or standards?
    I presume, the people whom the Fe user feels closest to and most trusting of -- family, friends, community...

    The standards of someone who has grown up in poverty will not be the same as those who grew up on snob hill.
    The standards of an atheist will not be the same as someone who is religious.
    I still cannot see how it's not subjective.
    It is -- you are correct that true objectivity doesn't exist; but the extroverted feeler is defined by needing such objectivity, and adopting beliefs and views that are, to their best belief, concordant to those of their role models. They feel most comfortable doing so.

    What happens to my Fe when all I can see is people not holding true to the shared values I was taught and adhere to?
    What happens when Independence becomes so prevalent that "community" becomes a catch phrase to describe strangers living in the same area as opposed to group of people co-existing for the greater good of everybody?
    My country is turning into the USA. My people are becoming "independent"
    My society is being over run by special interest. My values are archaic or too progressive, no one is even sure anymore.
    But don't tell me the contradictions don't exist.
    We need laws and police to impose these shared values . Everything else is "cliquey"
    You said it. "you are either with us or against us."
    This is what has changed around here.
    When I become one of the gang. I can't help becoming parody of it, because it's so hypocritical of the actual values that are supposed to exists between humanity based on humanity.

    AM I objective or subjective?
    Well, you're being objective in such sense as Jung defines objectivity, if the root of your beliefs is what you have been taught is correct. If you simply feel, of your own volition and in your own terms, that society is wrong to adhere to the values it presently adheres to, you are being subjective.
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  10. #40
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    IxFJs can easily be socially awkward but still seek harmony, loyalty, etc.

    Plus, Ti in FJs (both NFJs and SFJs) can cause them to call into question Fe values they were taught, on the grounds of logic they can reject Fe values from their upbringing or primary group. FJs with a lot of Ti will do this most readily.

    Your Fe can be hurt by your family, too, making your Fe seem "strange" to people who had a more traditional concept of family growing up.

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