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Thread: ESTJ

  1. #51
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    just stumbled onto this thread; at work now so not much time to comment in detail..

    but oh, wildcat, this is beautiful. It reminds me of Bertrand Russell's quote, about "the austere beauty of mathematics". And yes, it is about patterns.

    INTP's complementary is ESFJ. no question about that.

    beautifully done, wildcat. the imposition of order on seeming chaos. kudos from the elf.
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  2. #52
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    at the behest of aelan, this was part of my PM to her on wildcat's post; hope it'll help the followers of this thread on. (i do not claim to understand him fully though):

    ---------

    it's freaking beautiful what wildcat did. he numerically quantified the 8 functions into a matrix based on 9, and correlated them to their characteristics. so that by the derivation and deduction, you get the shadow appearing.

    that's why he said small is beautiful (deduction).

    the first mail was to order the 1-8 for the 8 functions. whatever got it right, i worked out the same nos too.

    haven't absorbed it fully myself (since i don't quite know what the Te Si etc are about and i've only got 5 min), but it's a means of deriving the shadow and proving that the shadow exists as a schist to the real self, rather than MBTI idea of one growing into the other. ie, opposing selves. numerically derived.

    its chaos theory applied. beautiful.
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  3. #53
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elfinchilde View Post
    just stumbled onto this thread; at work now so not much time to comment in detail..

    but oh, wildcat, this is beautiful. It reminds me of Bertrand Russell's quote, about "the austere beauty of mathematics". And yes, it is about patterns.

    INTP's complementary is ESFJ. no question about that.

    beautifully done, wildcat. the imposition of order on seeming chaos. kudos from the elf.
    There is a chap.
    You see the basics. When you see the basics you see everything.

    When I entered the INTPc I did not know a thing about the MBTI.
    I studied the cognitive processes thread.
    And then the MBTI theory.
    There is an incongruity between them.

    I had engaged in a colour photography for a while.
    In the negative you see the complementary colour.

    The cognitive processes test gives the correct answers.
    Why?

    The questions do not reflect the order.
    They reflect the function.

  4. #54
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    You mean the fix?

    43218765
    74163852
    61472583
    12345678
    87654321
    38527416
    25836147
    56781234
    Vertical or horizontal.. whatever.


    The partner of the immediate vertical column on the left is the one on the right.
    There is no cut.
    In the 36.
    We cut.

    1 - 2 - 1+1 - 2 - 1

    Eight vertical columns.

    18
    27
    36
    45
    54
    63
    72
    81


    The distance is the interplay of the round with the turn around.

    The key number is 9.
    The auxiliary key number is FOUR.

    Why?

    9x4 = 36

  5. #55
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Added thinking after a conversation with my local "expert".

    If everyone uses all eight functions then there's two ways to look at this whole 1-8 versus 1-4 (1-8 being Ti,Ne,*,*,*,*,Si,Fe and 1-4 being Ti,Ne,Si,Fe,*,*,*,*). Working from the concept that the four functions commonly listed are those that define the type firstly we can assume that generally those not listed do not define the type and hence don't warrant inclusion. I think it would also be reasonable to further assume that those four functions are typically close in terms of preference or even that their order may indeed not be set for all subjects of one type (perhaps that's one reason for the variation within a type). The thing is whether or not we should list the functions as 1-4 or 1-8.

    Staying within the confines of an INTP example (we are exemplary after all ) would it be fair to say that the temperament of an INTP indicates that basically when rational detached analysis fails they go directly for the throat (kind of like a person using Si+Fe when "on a mission") or would it be more realistic to place the opposite functions directly to the other end of the scale?

    As for producing a strict ordering for the functions in and of itself, I'm not sure that it would bear any fruit. Would it not just encourage people to believe that they can type people based on functions?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #56
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    360 = a complete circle. One rotation.
    180 = half a rotation.
    90 = the rotation from one axis to another.
    45 = half a rotation from one axis to another.

    I fail to see the relevance.

    9x4 = 36 is the same mathematical sum (effectively) as four quarter turns make a full turn but unless you are indicating that a type has a flanking type either side and an opposite I still fail to see the relevance.

    9-4 = 5 I'm assuming that this is mere working out as although I've seen your link between say 4 and 5 the numbers themselves are meaningless to me.

    9+4=13 Where's 13 come from? 13 is a prime number, not much use in patterns I'd imagine.
    Yes.

    13+32 = 45

    The left hand combines with the left hand only.
    The right hand combines with the right hand.

    1+3 = 4
    2+3 = 5

    3+6 = 5+4

  7. #57
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Yes.

    13+32 = 45

    The left hand combines with the left hand only.
    The right hand combines with the right hand.

    1+3 = 4
    2+3 = 5

    3+6 = 5+4
    I can't fault your mathematics but I have no idea what you're trying to achieve with it.

    Do you perhaps have a fastidious brother to fill in the blanks? Such as left and right hand of what or where on earth you got 32 from.

    Forgive my ignorance but your thinking seems to be to say 36-19 = 17, 5+9+22 = 36. Now that's not a problem in and of itself but you haven't said why that's important or a revelation past teaching someone maths.

    Perhaps if you gave a real world example of what revelations your system has given you into the MBTI then it may be possible to work backwards towards how the table and numbers achieve it?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #58
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I can't fault your mathematics but I have no idea what you're trying to achieve with it.

    Do you perhaps have a fastidious brother to fill in the blanks? Such as left and right hand of what or where on earth you got 32 from.

    Forgive my ignorance but your thinking seems to be to say 36-19 = 17, 5+9+22 = 36. Now that's not a problem in and of itself but you haven't said why that's important or a revelation past teaching someone maths.

    Perhaps if you gave a real world example of what revelations your system has given you into the MBTI then it may be possible to work backwards towards how the table and numbers achieve it?
    The relevant numbers: post 54.

    32 is the number of the loci.

    36-FOUR = 32.

    The loci sequences are four in number.
    Each sequence is eight in number.

    8X4 = 32.
    The number of the loci.

    36-32 = 4

    9-1 = 8

    1+1+1+1 = 4

  9. #59
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    The relevant numbers: post 54.

    32 is the number of the loci.

    36-FOUR = 32.

    The loci sequences are four in number.
    Each sequence is eight in number.

    8X4 = 32.
    The number of the loci.

    36-32 = 4

    9-1 = 8

    1+1+1+1 = 4
    This still bears no observable relevance in regard to the MBTI which is what you started with. Have you lost your path or is it one of those paths that has to circumvent a mountain? If it is one of those then if you could tell me of the mountain I'd probably find your path or meet up with you around the other side a whole lot quicker.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #60
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Ok- 1-8 are the orders in which the functions are used by the ESTJ, If the numbers are arranged in a circle, they show which of the ESTJs functions are used by which other types as thier primary functions- something like this-



    I colored them in color wheel colors since you were talking about a color wheel
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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