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Thread: ESTJ

  1. #41
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Sorry I could not get to the forum.
    I shall try to answer your questions.

    You see the continuum of the 8 that runs through the square. Stop at the fourth number 8. You have number 1 under it. Follow the continuum of 1 down to the end.

    Now you have marked a border. Look at the triangle inside the border.
    You see the vertical column left. Do not touch the border.
    3+2 = 5
    5+4 = 9
    7+6 = 13
    5+4 = 13-4

    You see also the triangle up and down and on the right.

    36 = 9X4

    = 13+13+5+5

    The nine is the key number.

    If the ten makes you uncomfy forget it. Big deal.

    Did you say that ESTP is the complementary partner of INTP? No way.

    The complementary partners stand on a continuum. All the NTs have the numbers (in diverse order of course) seven and four and one and six in the anterior package. This should be reflected in the posterior package of the SP. Save number seven, this is not the case. Their posterior numbers are five six seven and eight.

    What should be the other way up?
    Sorry about the "other way up" thing. I didn't see the INTP set going down. I could only see the sequence going up for some reason. Nadir has made it all clear.

    As for these internal patterns, what do they describe? It is of no use to know that according to this table the top left corner adds up to 26 without the context of knowing what that 26 means. What you are doing so far is comparable to the answer brought by Deep Thought in "The Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy". 42 is quite possibly the answer to life and everything but what does 42 mean? Ergo my question is what does 9 mean? What question does 36 answer? It is these questions which still bore at my brain.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #42
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post


    after much work I end up with the same thing as Nadir- only less colorful- interesting because you can see which function of yours ends up as which function for each other type- but I don't understand why, for instance, my functions don't appear in the order of Se Ti Fe Ni Si Te Fi Ne, as opposed to having the unused functions appear in the middle :sad:

    I also don't understand why in the order of things it goes
    1 Te
    2 Si
    3 Se
    4 Ti
    5 Fe
    6 Ni
    7 Ne
    8 Fi

    why are the Ss and Ns together, but the Ts and Fs split?

    somewhat getting an idea of what's going on, but not completely sure still
    Good work!
    And good questions.

    Why are they together when the others split? That is the EJ/IP order. The IJ/EP is the other way around.

    This is why we should basically use the 12345678 order for each type.
    To have the hierarchy right.
    And my answer follows that pattern.

    We have to get the 5+5 out of the first four. In this instance (ESTJ), it is Te+Ti and Si+Se. The five keeps us in check. There is no way or reason to go around it.
    When we have established Te we immediately know where to place Ti.

    Te is 1.
    5-X = 1.
    X = 4.

    Therefore Ti is 4.

    5-X = 3
    X = Si

    5-X = 2
    X = Se


    In the latter party we have to get 13+13..


    13-9 = 4
    9-5 = 4

    13+5 = 18
    18/2 = 9

    In other words: we first substract and then add 4.

    The small numbers come first.
    1. is the first function .. and so on and so on

    It may sad because I know they confuse function 7. with 3. and 8. with 4 in some models.
    ESTJ is Te Si Ne Fi yes. It is a four-function model. Nothing wrong with that.

    The eight function model is Te Si Se Ti Fe Ni Ne Fi.

  3. #43
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Sorry about the "other way up" thing. I didn't see the INTP set going down. I could only see the sequence going up for some reason. Nadir has made it all clear.

    As for these internal patterns, what do they describe? It is of no use to know that according to this table the top left corner adds up to 26 without the context of knowing what that 26 means. What you are doing so far is comparable to the answer brought by Deep Thought in "The Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy". 42 is quite possibly the answer to life and everything but what does 42 mean? Ergo my question is what does 9 mean? What question does 36 answer? It is these questions which still bore at my brain.
    If it may help you to understand the 36 add zero

    360

    rings any bells?

    360
    180
    090
    045

    9X4 = 36
    9-4 = 5
    9+4 = 13

  4. #44
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Wildcat m'man...

    ...

    I normally dig your posts, but I can't figure this bull out. It would probably help if I knew what you were trying to assert. Sounds like you're just looking to challenge yourself, but I'm not sure.

    Also, I'd like to second Whatever's question about why the order is that way.

    Upon reexamining the first post I'm even more convinced that you're just playing with numbers. It's not even about the MBTI now is it? Just the numbers?
    You mean the fix?

    43218765
    74163852
    61472583
    12345678
    87654321
    38527416
    25836147
    56781234

  5. #45
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    If it may help you to understand the 36 add zero

    360

    rings any bells?

    360
    180
    090
    045

    9X4 = 36
    9-4 = 5
    9+4 = 13
    360 = a complete circle. One rotation.
    180 = half a rotation.
    90 = the rotation from one axis to another.
    45 = half a rotation from one axis to another.

    I fail to see the relevance.

    9x4 = 36 is the same mathematical sum (effectively) as four quarter turns make a full turn but unless you are indicating that a type has a flanking type either side and an opposite I still fail to see the relevance.

    9-4 = 5 I'm assuming that this is mere working out as although I've seen your link between say 4 and 5 the numbers themselves are meaningless to me.

    9+4=13 Where's 13 come from? 13 is a prime number, not much use in patterns I'd imagine.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #46
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    You're getting there but Nadir seems to have the order worked out correctly for ESTPs.


    I believe the whole idea relates back to an old conversation me and Wildcat had on the previous MBTIc incarnation. It's basically a way of representing all eight functions for all sixteen types in one table. It's taken me ages to see it but I think that's what it is.
    No I got that. That's sort of obvious...

    I meant, why do we need them on a table? And the more pertinent question, why is the function order that way?
    we fukin won boys

  7. #47
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Code:
           E  I  E  I  I  E  I  E 
           N  S  N  S  N  S  N  S
           T  T  F  F  T  T  F  F
           J  J  P  P  P  P  J  J
    
    ESTJ   Te Si Ne Fi Ti Se Ni Fe   ENFJ
    INTJ   Ni Te Fi Se Ne Ti Fe Si   ISFJ
    ESFP   Se Fi Te Ni Si Fe Ti Ne   ENTP
    INFP   Fi Ne Si Te Fe Ni Se Ti   ISTP
    ISTP   Ti Se Ni Fe Te Si Ne Fi   INFP
    ENTP   Ne Ti Fe Si Ni Te Fi Se   ESFP
    ISFJ   Si Fe Ti Ne Se Fi Te Ni   INTJ
    ENFJ   Fe Ni Se Ti Fi Ne Si Te   ESTJ
    
           E  I  E  I  I  E  I  E
           S  N  S  N  S  N  S  N  
           F  F  T  T  F  F  T  T
           J  J  P  P  P  P  J  J
    Here's the same thing using the more common function extrapolation. I mean if you're just trying to make it a grid. also I didn't use numbers.

    It's like sudoku Ha!

    We could do that actually... gimme a few hours.

    Edit: nevermind. It'll be lame.
    we fukin won boys

  8. #48
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Code:
           E  I  E  I  I  E  I  E 
           N  S  N  S  N  S  N  S
           T  T  F  F  T  T  F  F
           J  J  P  P  P  P  J  J
    
    ESTJ   Te Si Ne Fi Ti Se Ni Fe   ENFJ
    INTJ   Ni Te Fi Se Ne Ti Fe Si   ISFJ
    ESFP   Se Fi Te Ni Si Fe Ti Ne   ENTP
    INFP   Fi Ne Si Te Fe Ni Se Ti   ISTP
    ISTP   Ti Se Ni Fe Te Si Ne Fi   INFP
    ENTP   Ne Ti Fe Si Ni Te Fi Se   ESFP
    ISFJ   Si Fe Ti Ne Se Fi Te Ni   INTJ
    ENFJ   Fe Ni Se Ti Fi Ne Si Te   ESTJ
    
           E  I  E  I  I  E  I  E
           S  N  S  N  S  N  S  N  
           F  F  T  T  F  F  T  T
           J  J  P  P  P  P  J  J
    Here's the same thing using the more common function extrapolation. I mean if you're just trying to make it a grid. also I didn't use numbers.
    If you look at Wildcat's idea, refined by Nadir wonderfully, his table would list INTP to ESFJ because the belief is that the four most common noted functions aren't first, second, third and fourth but first, second, seventh and last.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #49
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    If you look at Wildcat's idea, refined by Nadir wonderfully, his table would list INTP to ESFJ because the belief is that the four most common noted functions aren't first, second, third and fourth but first, second, seventh and last.
    I happened to notice that. I was hoping Wildcat had some really cool reason, not just having it show up with opposing letters on the other side.

    Mine's got a neat little trick too. The one directly across from the starting one has the middle two letters switched, while the outside ends remain the same.

    That's why I made mine - I wanted it to be corrected; this would draw out his rationale. Basically I was hoping there was something more -- I figured he might have been waiting to tell WHY he did it that way 'til after everyone understood how the way he was doing it worked.

    I understand that the ESTJ used the ST functions with the varying I/E J/P ends then switching to N and F of the same to find all the numbers in that row, but I'm curious as to what led him to do it that way, rather than giving each person one of each perceiving function and one of each judging function, with the 'appropriate' attitudes.

    Maybe he did do it just because he wanted INTP to sit directly across the table from ESFJ. Is Wildcat a sadist?
    we fukin won boys

  10. #50
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    Let's wait and find out!

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy
    Maybe he did do it just because he wanted INTP to sit directly across the table from ESFJ.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    If you look at Wildcat's idea, refined by Nadir wonderfully, his table would list INTP to ESFJ because the belief is that the four most common noted functions aren't first, second, third and fourth but first, second, seventh and last.
    Yep! And it may be that his interpretation is the only way to preserve opposite types in a symmetrical/parallel representation.
    The way I understand it, he looked at the common interpretation of "opposite types" and tried to represent the dichotomies by their functions only. The principal difference is that he utilized all eight functions, as opposed to MBTI's four-function preference. The result is the ordering as wildcat, Xander and lastrailway are describing which managed to get it just right.

    Okay, some more. So why are the function orders that way? I think it's because of how the types stand in relation to each other.
    The primary contrast between the ESFJ and INTP are the Sensing/Intuition and Feeling/Thinking dichotomies. EJ and IP simply define the attitudes. This also helps maintain the "opposition" principle as in wildcat's system, we see that INTP and ESFJ oppose each other not by all of their four dimensions but their main two, NT and SF respectively, so that one is indeed the other's "shadow". This is in contrast to the conventional MBTI system because MBTI implies that each will grow into the other with time -- whereas wildcat's system is more of the opinion that there will most likely remain a degree of fundamental difference between two opposite types, and the middle ground will be dictated by the EJ/IP (dominant judging, secondary perceiving) and EP/IJ (dominant perceiving, secondary judging) dichotomies instead.

    I hope this has been rather accurate, though!
    Not really.

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