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  1. #21
    Senior Member JustDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priam View Post
    Free thinking, as a concept, is too woolly to be confined in any single definition. Every type has its own breed of free-thinkers, though their methods or intent differ considerably. If I weren't drunk I would elaborate, but I'll try to come back later.
    Although it would seem like I am trying to score points with you I am not. Nevertheless you are exhibiting what I consider free thinking.

  2. #22
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustDave View Post
    I believe it is the Idealists not the Rationals, which are the freest thinkers. My reason for this belief is although Rationals are very critical and easily see through hype and deception they always view everything through the "square prism of logic". And logic can prevent one from seeing illogical although probable things.

    If anyone actually wants to discuss this I will gladly provide more background on my belief. Until then I don't want to needlessly spin my wheels.
    I don't agree. I believe Rationals (NT's) are aware of illogical possibilities within a given situation, but simply prefer not to entertain them. Just as Idealists (NF's) are aware of emotionally unsavory possibilities in a given situation and prefer not to entertain them.

    In other words, they each have limitations in different areas. My guess is that it's people who are more aware of possibilities before making a judgment on them who are the freest thinkers. Those would probably be Ne-dominant ENxP's. And trust me, it shows in their behavior.

    I would give NT's the advantage in determining truth, however. Logic is more well-suited to discovering truth in the long run, although it's process may prevent a person from discovering or creating an idea that doesn't seem to connect with what is already understood until the steps to it are built up from the foundation. NF's might be better at finding isolated pockets of knowledge at times that NT's wouldn't consider looking for because it didn't fit at all with what they already knew to be true.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Priam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    Of course.. it is obvious that this is a black and white approach to NT/NF cognitive capabilities. That is what makes it all the more appealing to debate. Most of us are quite aware that it is absurd to truly consider one more free-thinking than the other, but in theory it makes for an interesting volley.
    But what's the point of debating a premise unless it can be accepted as a valid either/or? Yes, most everything in life is painted in shades of gray, but some less so than others and there are some where we are required to make a decision regardless. This is none of those. Why should I debate something that, on the face of it, is entirely too either/or unless...


    OMG. I've suddenly rejoined the debating team...

    And that is why you, dear judge, must vote Aff! Because Neg leads to thermonuclear war!11!11

    *props taped glasses further up nose and reaches for inhaler*
    "The subject chooses to sit in shadow and search for wisdom by reflecting upon his trial. The problem is not that he is cold and wet, but that cold and wet seems problematic, so he embraces those hardships in order to best them."

  4. #24
    Senior Member JustDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I don't agree. I believe Rationals (NT's) are aware of illogical possibilities within a given situation, but simply prefer not to entertain them. Just as Idealists (NF's) are aware of emotionally unsavory possibilities in a given situation and prefer not to entertain them.

    In other words, they each have limitations in different areas. My guess is that it's people who are more aware of possibilities before making a judgment on them who are the freest thinkers. Those would probably be Ne-dominant ENxP's. And trust me, it shows in their behavior.

    I would give NT's the advantage in determining truth, however. Logic is more well-suited to discovering truth in the long run, although it's process may prevent a person from discovering or creating an idea that doesn't seem to connect with what is already understood until the steps to it are built up from the foundation. NF's might be better at finding isolated pockets of knowledge at times that NT's wouldn't consider looking for because it didn't fit at all with what they already knew to be true.

    Since there is some confusion about what I consider a free thinker I will put this as plainly (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way) as I can.

    A coworker, and friend of mine, is a Rational and probably an INTJ. He has a Masters Degree in Electrical Engineering and is a licensed P.E. Additonally his hobbies are very NT: chess, astronomy, robotics, etc.

    We support a very complex computer network. Constantly when troubleshooting problems I come up with solutions that he finds ludicrous yet more often than not I am correct. Maybe it's intuition on my part that allows me to devise these semmingly odd solutions.

    To me it just seems odd that someone such as myself (now certain I'm not a Rational) could consistently devise creative soltions while my friend is left baffled.

  5. #25
    Senior Member JustDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priam View Post
    But what's the point of debating a premise unless it can be accepted as a valid either/or? Yes, most everything in life is painted in shades of gray, but some less so than others and there are some where we are required to make a decision regardless. This is none of those. Why should I debate something that, on the face of it, is entirely too either/or unless...


    OMG. I've suddenly rejoined the debating team...

    And that is why you, dear judge, must vote Aff! Because Neg leads to thermonuclear war!11!11

    *props taped glasses further up nose and reaches for inhaler*
    So don't. Ignore this thread. Discounting this thread there's about another 2000 or so on this forum to post to.

    That being said please stay. Your insights are quite good and not nearly as dogmatic as some other rational seen frequenting this thread

  6. #26
    Senior Member MerkW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I don't agree. I believe Rationals (NT's) are aware of illogical possibilities within a given situation, but simply prefer not to entertain them. Just as Idealists (NF's) are aware of emotionally unsavory possibilities in a given situation and prefer not to entertain them.

    In other words, they each have limitations in different areas. My guess is that it's people who are more aware of possibilities before making a judgment on them who are the freest thinkers. Those would probably be Ne-dominant ENxP's. And trust me, it shows in their behavior.

    I would give NT's the advantage in determining truth, however. Logic is more well-suited to discovering truth in the long run, although it's process may prevent a person from discovering or creating an idea that doesn't seem to connect with what is already understood until the steps to it are built up from the foundation. NF's might be better at finding isolated pockets of knowledge at times that NT's wouldn't consider looking for because it didn't fit at all with what they already knew to be true.
    Perfectly well stated. Sometimes I begin to wonder as to whether you are an INTP.
    "The mathematician's patterns, like the painter's or the poet's must be beautiful; the ideas like the colours or the words, must fit together in a harmonious way. Beauty is the first test: there is no permanent place in the world for ugly mathematics..." - G.H. Hardy

    "Another roof, another proof." - Paul Erdős

    INTJ (I = 100, N = 100, T = 88, J = 43)
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    Reserved Idealist
    ILI-Ni/INTp

  7. #27
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustDave View Post
    Since there is some confusion about what I consider a free thinker I will put this as plainly (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way) as I can.

    A coworker, and friend of mine, is a Rational and probably an INTJ. He has a Masters Degree in Electrical Engineering and is a licensed P.E. Additonally his hobbies are very NT: chess, astronomy, robotics, etc.

    We support a very complex computer network. Constantly when troubleshooting problems I come up with solutions that he finds ludicrous yet more often than not I am correct. Maybe it's intuition on my part that allows me to devise these semmingly odd solutions.

    To me it just seems odd that someone such as myself (now certain I'm not a Rational) could consistently devise creative soltions while my friend is left baffled.
    Believe it or not, some Rationals aren't that creative, especially on the spot. His best creative ideas probably come to him when he's alone, and he has to find a way to express them that's logically consistent. EP's are better at impromptu solutions and quick fixes in general, IJ's are better with long term strategies that apply over a longer course. That's what you're probably seeing here. I think a typical ENTP that was skilled with computers would do just as well as you're doing, if not better.

  8. #28
    Senior Member JustDave's Avatar
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    Apparently I am the only one who doesn't think illogical and impossible are the same.

  9. #29
    Senior Member JustDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Believe it or not, some Rationals aren't that creative, especially on the spot. His best creative ideas probably come to him when he's alone, and he has to find a way to express them that's logically consistent. EP's are better at impromptu solutions and quick fixes in general, IJ's are better with long term strategies that apply over a longer course. That's what you're probably seeing here. I think a typical ENTP that was skilled with computers would do just as well as you're doing, if not better.
    Normally I would agree. However, in my case I live and breath computers so probably not. Besides another one of my coworkers is a "real" (as in he took a test administered by a professional, lucky SOB) ENTP and he knows his stuff but only performs when it is to his benefit. On other hand, toss me into the datacenter naked and bleeding, threaten to kill my family if I fix the problem and I will probably do so anyway just to prove that I can.

  10. #30
    Senior Member MerkW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustDave View Post
    Normally I would agree. However, in my case I live and breath computers so probably not. Besides another one of my coworkers is a "real" (as in he took a test administered by a professional, lucky SOB) ENTP and he knows his stuff but only performs when it is to his benefit. On other hand, toss me into the datacenter naked and bleeding, threaten to kill my family if I fix the problem and I will probably do so anyway just to prove that I can.
    Just to let you know, I do, in fact, plan on eating you for breakfast tomorrow morning. I hope the High Priest of Nevada approves.
    "The mathematician's patterns, like the painter's or the poet's must be beautiful; the ideas like the colours or the words, must fit together in a harmonious way. Beauty is the first test: there is no permanent place in the world for ugly mathematics..." - G.H. Hardy

    "Another roof, another proof." - Paul Erdős

    INTJ (I = 100, N = 100, T = 88, J = 43)
    Solitary/Idiosyncratic, 5w6 sp/sx
    RL(x)EI (RlxE|I|)- Inquisitive Dominant
    Reserved Idealist
    ILI-Ni/INTp

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