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  1. #121
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    Jung wasn't referring to introvert thinkers.. he was referring to the cognitive function of introverted thinking. The subjective factor to which Jung refers in your quote is the decisiveness of introverted thinking which involves drawing from one's own vault of thoughts organised into and based on preexisting principles within the mind of the introverted thinker (not IxTx... Ti), not from experience, of which observation is a subset, and of which is objective.
    Don't start the circular reasoning bullshit. You said that Idealists live life subjectively. Rationals live it objectively.

  2. #122
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Heart or Head?

    False dilemma.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  3. #123
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    Don't start the circular reasoning bullshit.
    Nothing circular about my reasoning. You falsely interpreted your own quote of Jung, and I cleared it up for you.

  4. #124
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    Dana, it is okay, every logically valid derivation exemplifies circular reasoning, so your argument would be worse if it was not circular. Curious fact indeed. (edit: the curious part is the myth that circular reasoning is to be avoided. I think, perhaps, it has something to do with a desire to avoid dogmatism. The two differ quite importantly, however.)
    Last edited by reason; 01-28-2008 at 04:21 PM.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  5. #125
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    Nothing circular about my reasoning. You falsely interpreted your own quote of Jung, and I cleared it up for you.
    Have you even read Psychological Types? every extraverted function is designated as 'objective', and every introverted function is 'subjective'. In fact, Jung makes many points earlier in his book about how he believes that earlier philosophers often conflated a judgement process with a perception process.
    Anyway, you are balking because Jung's definitions differ from conventional mental pictures of objectity and subjectivity. But in the conventional vision of this, only extraverted thinking gets elevated as some form of supreme objectivity. That is how our culture sees it. I think a step toward this is a step backwards.

    Yes, Jungs definition says that extraverted FEELING is objective too!

    Here's something from Building Blocks of personality type about introverted thinking:
    "In reporting after an excercise, the individual members of this 'type-alike' group usually elaborate on what was written on the flip chart. They want to ensure that thier own unique perspective is understood. They do not feel a need to come to consensus about what is presented on the flip chart, just to ensure that all the different ideas are presented"

  6. #126
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    Have you even read Psychological Types?
    No.
    every extraverted function is designated as 'objective', and every introverted function is 'subjective'. In fact, Jung makes many points earlier in his book about how he believes that earlier philosophers often conflated a judgement process with a perception process.
    Anyway, you are balking because Jung's definitions differ from conventional mental pictures of objectity and subjectivity. But in the conventional vision of this, only extraverted thinking gets elevated as some form of supreme objectivity. That is how our culture sees it. I think a step toward this is a step backwards.

    Yes, Jungs definition says that extraverted FEELING is objective too!

    Here's something from Building Blocks of personality type about introverted thinking:
    "In reporting after an excercise, the individual members of this 'type-alike' group usually elaborate on what was written on the flip chart. They want to ensure that thier own unique perspective is understood. They do not feel a need to come to consensus about what is presented on the flip chart, just to ensure that all the different ideas are presented"
    That is what I said in my post about introverted and extraverted thinking; that Introverted functions are subjective, and extraverted functions objective.

  7. #127
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    No.

    That is what I said in my post about introverted and extraverted thinking; that Introverted functions are subjective, and extraverted functions objective.
    You acknowledge this, and yet you still say that.
    "Rationals live life objectively, idealists live life subjectively"

    Either this is not true, or you reject Jung's definition

  8. #128
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    You acknowledge this, and yet you still say that.
    "Rationals live life objectively, idealists live life subjectively"
    You've got it backwards. I said "Rationals live life objectively, idealists live life subjectively." Then I said that.

    Jung's definition has little to do with my own theories, which I have brought into this thread.

  9. #129
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    Jung wasn't referring to introvert thinkers.. he was referring to the cognitive function of introverted thinking. The subjective factor to which Jung refers in your quote is the decisiveness of introverted thinking which involves drawing from one's own vault of thoughts organised into and based on preexisting principles within the mind of the introverted thinker (not IxTx... Ti), not from experience, of which observation is a subset, and of which is objective.
    This is not true. Jung proceeds to say the exact same things about the introverted thinking type as he says about the process.

  10. #130
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    I can accept that my theory isn't true. I don't read directly from Jung; instead I gather my understanding of the cognitive functions on websites devoted to the subject, through correspondence with friends that know more than I about it, and on MBTIc, which has helped the most.

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