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  1. #111
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mexico View Post
    Whatever the merit of her points, the fact remains that "trying to see the world objectively" is essentially the definition of "logic." So, regardless of however short of perfecting this art any of us may fall, I still don't see a compelling case that the rational method is anything other than the best means available.
    Um...NO! Lol.

    Logic is a way of reaching conclusions. It doesn't have to be related to seeing the world objectively and often it isn't. Pure logic is used to reach purely theoretical conclusions. Therefore it is totally separate from one's perception of the world. Logic and objectivity are two totally different things.

    (The definition of logic I am using of course is the rigorous type of logic applied by mathematicians and philosophers. All other "logic" is fluff by comparison.)
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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  2. #112
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    Idealists live life subjectively. Rationals live it objectively. (on a continuum of course) Objectivity implies freedom.
    Uhh... no, Jung says that all introverted types are subjective and all extraverted types objective. In his distinction of thinking types, Jung says,
    When describing extraverted thinking, I gave a brief characterization of introverted thinking, to which at this stage I must make further reference. Introverted thinking is primarily orientated by the subjective factor. At the least, this subjective factor is represented by a subjective feeling of direction, which, in the last resort, determines judgment. Occasionally, it is a more or less finished image, which to some extent, serves as a standard. This thinking may be conceived either with concrete or with abstract factors, but always at the decisive points it is orientated by subjective data. Hence, it does not lead from concrete experience back again into objective things, but always to the subjective content. External facts are not the aim and origin of this thinking, although the introvert would often like to make it so appear. It begins in the subject, and returns to the subject, although it may undertake the widest flights into the territory of the real and the actual.

  3. #113
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Thanks for backing me up Athenian. It's good to know I fall into your book of underdeveloped FP'ness.
    I wasn't really talking about you specifically. I was thinking about some FP's I knew that did this... dismissing what I was saying, sticking to their own ideas about what I meant and throwing accusations at me for no apparent reason, and only guessing at motivation, which can be hard to deal with.

    I hadn't even read your post when I replied to that, and I agree with many of the points about perception and such. I just worried that because you were an NF, RM might make the assumption that what they applied to you applied to all NF's, and I wanted to make it clear that that behavior wasn't as typical of my type as it was to NFP's. It was meant to be defensive, not offensive. Sorry if I offended you, though.

  4. #114
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    Uhh... no, Jung says that all introverted types are subjective and all extraverted types objective. In his distinction of thinking types, Jung says,
    Introverts and extraverts are certainly oriented to their inner and outer worlds, respectively, but that does not mean the introvert is more subjective and the extravert more objective.. it simply means the introvert must reflect and the extravert must (inter)act.

    You will need to expound upon your claim for me to consider it seriously. As for now, I reject it.

  5. #115
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    Introverts and extraverts are certainly oriented to their inner and outer worlds, respectively, but that does not mean the introvert is more subjective and the extravert more objective.. it simply means the introvert must reflect and the extravert must (inter)act.

    You will need to expound upon your claim for me to consider it seriously. As for now, I reject it.
    Tell Jung that, the quote was directly from his Chapter on the subject.

  6. #116
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Jung wasn't referring to introvert thinkers.. he was referring to the cognitive function of introverted thinking. The subjective factor to which Jung refers in your quote is the decisiveness of introverted thinking which involves drawing from one's own vault of thoughts organised into and based on preexisting principles within the mind of the introverted thinker (not IxTx... Ti), not from experience, of which observation is a subset, and of which is objective.

  7. #117
    Senior Member MerkW's Avatar
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    This thread has become derailed to the point of tragedy.

    Of course, that reminds me...

    When waiting for trains, I have always wondered how much junk it would take to throw onto the tracks to derail the entire train. I have thought of mathematically calculating how to strategically place only one dime to complete this entire task.
    "The mathematician's patterns, like the painter's or the poet's must be beautiful; the ideas like the colours or the words, must fit together in a harmonious way. Beauty is the first test: there is no permanent place in the world for ugly mathematics..." - G.H. Hardy

    "Another roof, another proof." - Paul Erdős

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  8. #118
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    This thread was derailed from the first post.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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  9. #119
    Senior Member Roger Mexico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Um...NO! Lol.

    Logic is a way of reaching conclusions. It doesn't have to be related to seeing the world objectively and often it isn't. Pure logic is used to reach purely theoretical conclusions. Therefore it is totally separate from one's perception of the world. Logic and objectivity are two totally different things.

    (The definition of logic I am using of course is the rigorous type of logic applied by mathematicians and philosophers. All other "logic" is fluff by comparison.)
    You're right. I must have confused the word logic with reason.

    Thanks.
    "Chase after the truth like all hell and you'll free yourself, even if you never touch its coattails."
    --Clarence Darrow

  10. #120
    Senior Member Roger Mexico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    You know, the only thing I got when reading your response was "blah blah blah blah I hate DDR because it's fun blah blah blah blah"
    I really don't see what Erich Honecker has to do with any of this...

    Oh, wait, you were talking about those god-awful irritating plastic contraptions with the shitty music and flashing lights. Never mind.

    At least you didn't drag ESFP women into it this time and turn it into some argument why "reptilian" gold digging is illogical. Though your new signature is just as charming.
    On the contrary, it's eminently logical--ESFP's are carnivorous reptiles disguised as human beings, like in that movie V. Everybody has to eat.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post

    I live in this world simultaneously with all the parts that make me up. I think with my heart and feel with my head.
    Your nose runs. Your feet smell. You're built upside down!
    "Chase after the truth like all hell and you'll free yourself, even if you never touch its coattails."
    --Clarence Darrow

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