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  1. #51
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    all INTPs are
    nerds
    slackers
    lazy asses
    losers
    cynical
    have a button in the back of their head to turn them on
    manufactured by Intel, like we can't be manufactured by another company!!!
    .....thing is, I fit most of them he he.

  2. #52
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    don't forget... you all wear glasses and never bathe either
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  3. #53
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    AND sunlight burns are skin.

  4. #54
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    don't forget... you all wear glasses and never bathe either
    but the truth is that we are all nearsighted, but too stubborn to wear glasses. or actually its not about being stubborn, i mean whats the point of carrying some annoying item in front of our eyes just so that we could see properly?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  5. #55
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robopop View Post
    all INTPs are
    nerds
    slackers
    lazy asses
    losers
    cynical
    fixed

  6. #56
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    2) Feeling is not about emotion - what is it about, then?
    There are people who would rather decide on emotions, values and people and other, different people who would rather decide on logic, efficiency and goals. If this is NOT the F-T distinction, I'm throwing F-T out of my favorite typology and use this one as replacement. I want to type my fiction characters as emotional or cold or something in between.
    Emotion is not cognition (although they certainly can work "together").

    Feeling is a rational cognitive function which reasons based on the premise of what is ideal, or valuable or significant, especially in relation to human needs and harmonious relations. This does not have to be at odds with what is logical, and logic can be used to support feelings, but logic is secondary or not even a factor in some value decisions. There are many issues in life which are matters of significance & morality, not matters of factual truth.

    Logic is just one form of rational thinking. Thinking is rational when it is proceeding or derived from reason or based on reasoning (italics taken from dictionary). To be rational is to use the process of reasoning. Reasoning is to form conclusions, judgments, or inferences from facts or premises. Logical thinking is using, according to, or deduced from the principles of logic. Logic is something the rational reasoning process can be based on. It's a premise. Ideals are the premise which Feelers use.

    Now if we're talking about WHAT is being evaluated verses HOW it is being evaluated, then yes, sometimes Feelers evaluate emotions to find meaning, and yes, this can mean feeling-judgments are colored by emotions. (Side tangent: I think because emotional signals are seen as so useful to Fs, we also use emotions to send signals to others. If you're not adept at using emotional signals, this can cause discomfort, or you can mistake the emotion as the argument when it's just a package designed to impart significance.) That does not mean the reasoning process itself is one of emotion, nor that the Feeler makes decisions based solely on emotion or always uses emotion as criteria. Just as hunger provides a signal of a need to eat, and then a person reasons on how to act on that signal and need, emotions signal that something is important. However, feeling itself reasons on that signal, it does not simply act on emotion; it can choose to discard an emotional response if it is not deemed useful.

    I personally often make decisions in which I choose to go against my emotions because I recognize they are at odds with my values/ideals, and those are the #1 criteria for my evaluations.

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/thinking-or-feeling.asp
    Thinking or Feeling

    This third preference pair describes how you like to make decisions. Do you like to put more weight on objective principles and impersonal facts (Thinking) or do you put more weight on personal concerns and the people involved (Feeling)?

    Don’t confuse Feeling with emotion. Everyone has emotions about the decisions they make. Also do not confuse Thinking with intelligence.
    Interesting comment on a Neuroscience blog regarding emotion + cognition:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://scienceblogs.com/purepedantry/2008/01/cognition_and_emotion_are_not.php
    In this view as I understand it, the function of emotion is to assign value and salience to stimuli and responses -- in essence, to guide cognition by incorporating goals and reward.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #57
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Concerning the Thinking-Feeling issue...

    Maybe there is also a misunderstanding from my part here. English is not my mother tongue. What nuances and implications does the word "emotional" have? Does it automatically get shades of "whiny" and "clingy" and "unreasonable"? Because the Dutch word "emotioneel" has two meanings... The first is a rather technical term, more or less the same as the MBTI's Feeling (if I understand Feeling correctly, that is - and which is not the same as the normal English "feeling") - it's about subjective decisions, taken from the heart, with concern for other people and/or true to your own values and everything.
    The other is a more negative meaning which essentially means "not thinking".
    Of course, I meant "emotional" in the first meaning... I know very well that emotions and logic can agree sometimes!Those decisions are the best, aren't they?
    Taking a decision based on values does not automatically imply the decision is unreasonable or inefficient. It also works the other way around - taking a decision based on efficiency doesn't automatically mean it's evil.
    I'm sure most people try to get their Thinking and Feeling sides to agree - with, of course, emphasis on the one or the other, depending on the person.

    I guess you can translate the previous thing in function language, too. I'm a Ti and Fe user and sometimes I recognize both at work - at odds with each other, trying to find a compromise, or the one deciding between a few possibilities left by the other. Why not? Explaining an abstract concept and so helping someone to understand it! I love teaching

    Another thing. Thinkers acting as if they are intrinsically better... okay, that's not nice. But it happens the other way around too. No friends, asocial loser, and of course unloving - because you are good at math. How many fiction heroes do you know who are good at math (or science) and are NOT lonely nerds or know-it-alls? How many of them are beautiful (which is an indicator for popularity and goodness)? No, the character with the brains is always the one the audience should feel pity for. Poor loner, who studies only because he's not wanted at the party!
    I know one of them - Hermione Granger. A bossy know-it-all indeed, but then she becomes an activist wanting to free the house-elf slaves! Amoral? Forget it. Kudos to Rowling. And even then Rowling got lots of letters asking her to make Ron survive the last book and none about Hermione. Ron is a much more loveable character. And that's the sad reality for the Hermiones among us.
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
    I'm female. I just can't draw women

  8. #58
    Senior Member Noon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    Concerning the Thinking-Feeling issue...

    Maybe there is also a misunderstanding from my part here. English is not my mother tongue.
    My apologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske
    What nuances and implications does the word "emotional" have? Does it automatically get shades of "whiny" and "clingy" and "unreasonable"? Because the Dutch word "emotioneel" has two meanings... The first is a rather technical term, more or less the same as the MBTI's Feeling (if I understand Feeling correctly, that is - and which is not the same as the normal English "feeling") - it's about subjective decisions, taken from the heart, with concern for other people and/or true to your own values and everything.
    In English, "emotional" implies that someone is sensitive and significantly affected by their emotional states: sadness, anger, etc. When used negatively, it implies that the person in question has a lower ability to think and reason clearly, consistently, reliably, and/or without bias. In communities like these, it very often carries the negative connotations. To be emotional is also to be very subjective because emotions are inherently very subjective, and we all know how subjectivity is so often villain-ized. I think that the problem is that the divide between common English and Jungian terminology often goes unacknowledged.

    The definition that you mention is pretty similar to what Fi includes. Fe users are also similar, but also different. I incorporate the possible effects on others that my decisions may have, as well as what is most efficient for creating interpersonal balance. It's to make interactions smoother so that everyone can get the most out of them. Although I do have my own personal values, I often work with the values of the external as well and try to squeeze the best, most efficient product out in the end. Both Feeling functions judge worth, importance, and value (good/bad, right/wrong) more than truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske
    The other is a more negative meaning which essentially means "not thinking".
    Of course, I meant "emotional" in the first meaning... I know very well that emotions and logic can agree sometimes!Those decisions are the best, aren't they?
    Interestingly, the bolded is a proper example of a Feeling judgment. I personally don't know that it's the best way, but I know that it's the way which I prefer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske
    Another thing. Thinkers acting as if they are intrinsically better... okay, that's not nice. But it happens the other way around too. No friends, asocial loser, and of course unloving - because you are good at math. How many fiction heroes do you know who are good at math (or science) and are NOT lonely nerds or know-it-alls? How many of them are beautiful (which is an indicator for popularity and goodness)? No, the character with the brains is always the one the audience should feel pity for. Poor loner, who studies only because he's not wanted at the party!
    I know one of them - Hermione Granger. A bossy know-it-all indeed, but then she becomes an activist wanting to free the house-elf slaves! Amoral? Forget it. Kudos to Rowling.
    That honestly sounds more like an I/E issue. Maybe also an issue of one culture over-valuing popularity and materialism. It's common. Feelers can also take the brunt of it. Many Feelers (like ENFPs) are gifted at math, so I don't think that it's a deciding factor for T or F.

  9. #59
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    Concerning the Thinking-Feeling issue...

    Maybe there is also a misunderstanding from my part here. English is not my mother tongue.
    Well, yes, that would explain a lot.

    I'm glad this came up. I now wonder how much this language barrier comes into play with other posters regarding feeling & emotion...

    What nuances and implications does the word "emotional" have? Does it automatically get shades of "whiny" and "clingy" and "unreasonable"? Because the Dutch word "emotioneel" has two meanings... The first is a rather technical term, more or less the same as the MBTI's Feeling (if I understand Feeling correctly, that is - and which is not the same as the normal English "feeling") - it's about subjective decisions, taken from the heart, with concern for other people and/or true to your own values and everything.
    It sounds like the Dutch word distinguishes better between Feeling in MBTI or Jungian terms and the general use of the word feeling. In English, the word feeling is unfortunately associated with emotional reactions, which are what Noon mentioned (ie. anger, sadness, excitement, etc). What you describe here is pretty much what Feeling as a function is meant to be (a form of reason), but in English to call it emotion is incorrect. There's pretty much not a good word for Feeling in English, as far as the MBTI/Jungian meaning goes, but Feeling is the best we've got.

    The other is a more negative meaning which essentially means "not thinking".
    Of course, I meant "emotional" in the first meaning...
    This second meaning is what emotions in English refers to - those irrational responses that arise & can cloud judgment if not dealt with properly. You can see why confusing the two annoys Feelers - it implies we don't use reason, but just act & decide based on emotional responses.

    I know very well that emotions and logic can agree sometimes!Those decisions are the best, aren't they?
    Taking a decision based on values does not automatically imply the decision is unreasonable or inefficient. It also works the other way around - taking a decision based on efficiency doesn't automatically mean it's evil.
    I'm sure most people try to get their Thinking and Feeling sides to agree - with, of course, emphasis on the one or the other, depending on the person.
    Agreed....and that is what MBTI suggests also.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  10. #60
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    Thinkers
    ...
    Regularly fap to Nietzsche
    Yes. Absurd.
    Schopenhauer is the only rational choice.


    Typology is the pseudo-science of attempting to give stereotypes legitimacy. It's the art of being wrong about the complexity of human nature in not particularly creative ways.
    How could it be anything other than dumb?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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