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[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Ni - What the hell is it?

Zarathustra

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My style of waiting is to "let the river do all the work." I simply sort out what is in the river. My net is to simply frame the question and let it settle in my mind.

Exactly!

But see, that's part of the reason why I think Ni gets this kinda mystical bent.

I know, for me at least, that's part of the reason why I find it mysterious.

After having experienced enough times in my life that, if I just wait, have patience, and let the universe do its thing (i.e., let time flow): the right answer will come.

This, at least in my case, ends up putting me in a position of sort of having to trust in the universe, it makes me sort of subservient to it, because I do not control the flow of that river.

This then starts defining my relationship to the universe, which, ultimately, I call "God".

I am subservient to it. And, when I am, it gives me my bounty.

I mean, if that doesn't sound like some religious or spiritual shit, caused more or less directly by my relationship to the universe due to my dominant function, I don't know what does...

I believe Islam means "submission to God", no? In my books, that means "submission to the universe"... both within me, and outside me.
 

PeaceBaby

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Just a week or two ago, in describing to my girlfriend why I and other Ni doms sometimes have a somewhat "blank" look on our face, I said it was because my thoughts on the matter are still forming.

It's how I recognize Ni-ers IRL ... a certain look in the eyes, distant and not quite present. The flash that occurs when the thoughts are interrupted, like a hailing back to reality.

Do you set aside time especially so you can ponder / float without any intrusions? Is it easy to access your Ni space even when in the middle of a group of people?
 

Zarathustra

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It's how I recognize Ni-ers IRL ... a certain look in the eyes, distant and not quite present. The flash that occurs when the thoughts are interrupted, like a hailing back to reality.

Actually, I just remembered! :laugh:

The reason we were having the discussion is because we were talking about how I and other Ni-ers tend to avoid eye contact.

And I said that I do it because otherwise I'm just gunna give you a blank expression, because my mind hasn't settled on anything yet.

Once my mind has congealed into some form, then I will look you right in the eye, cuz I know what it is that I am thinking.

I think a lifetime of seeing peoples' reactions to our "blank" expression may tend to lead (some) Ni-doms to sort of avoid eye contact until our faces aren't blank anymore.

Not only is it annoying to have people look at this "blank" expression and be kinda like :wtf:, but it messes with the formation of my (our?) thoughts in the first place.

Do you set aside time especially so you can ponder / float without any intrusions?

I would say that it's extremely important for me to do so sometimes.

In fact, I would say that I use yoga to go into an NiFi loop kinda state.

As much as some people may think I'm an ENTJ, I need downtime where I can just go and close my eyes, or sit somewhere and "zone out", and let existence wash over me.

Eventually, time is like water; it flushes out everything that needn't be there, and reveals that which does remain in a clearer light...

Is it easy to access your Ni space even when in the middle of a group of people?

Oh, I most certainly can access it when in the middle of a group of people.

But that doesn't mean it's good for my social life.

:cheese:
 

InvisibleJim

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Is it easy to access your Ni space even when in the middle of a group of people?

Not in the middle, anywhere but the middle. We end up having to continually pull ourself back into reality and it is a constant effort not to phase out trying to keep up with what is going on. If its a large group one would prefer to pass through without contact and unnoticed; this has the same effect as being alone and is preferred. This is why only communicating with 1 or 2 people is ideal at any time, we can either stay with Ni or without because we aren't being 'overwhelmed' into Ni by just a few persons.
 

cascadeco

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Do you set aside time especially so you can ponder / float without any intrusions? Is it easy to access your Ni space even when in the middle of a group of people?

For my entire adult life I have 'scheduled' days of nothingness - or at least preferred having those days interspersed with busier/active ones. :smile: It hasn't been much of an issue lately because I am working from home so have more than plenty of time to myself, but when I have held full-time office jobs, over the weekends the 'day of nothing' could become especially critical/necessary.

I am able to access Ni with groups of people, however the issue can become articulating my thoughts in real time, in the manner in which conversations tend to work in a group - i.e. my thoughts/ pacing of speaking typically doesn't work well in a fast-paced discussion. So I tend not to do well in social groups as a general rule.. I rarely say anything. Another thing - it becomes virtually impossible for me to really access it when I have an emotional investment / it's related to a particular person or relationship. But impersonal things - like anything work-related, a business meeting or discussion, etc - not an issue at all.
 

Thalassa

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P means slower to be content with conclusions reached, not slower per se. The perceiver part of the P priority holds that just around the corner there will be another piece of really interesting information so it's better to hold off finally choosing until we've seen that piece too.

Oh there's nothing slow about how I walk or how I type (over 80 wpm) and I can learn quite quickly when I'm shown how to do something new.

But processing information pertaining to human beings, whether more abstract or in terms of personal relationships, is something that I have to think about for a minute, I have to roll it around it in my head and make my own sense out of it, translate it to my own way of thinking, and check and see if I agree or what else I think or feel about it.



If you generally want more info on the connection between things, then it suggests N. If you want more of the speed and colour and shape of things, then (assuming we're still talking P here) suggests S.

I usually want more info on the connection between things, but I also want more of the color and shape of things.



Says little about N. Suggests you take as a priority the existence of feelings.

yeah, I figured, but just checking



So... not an Ni user then?




I crack me up.





There are lots of reasons for being unwilling or unable to commit to a type assertion. Being P (and therefore not wanting to decide too soon) is one. Being F (and therefore placing emphasis on individuals as they present themselves rather than emphasis on impersonal mechanism behind people) is another. Being E is actually another reason for avoiding typological assertions too, on the one hand to assert your individuality (your i side) and on the other to actually reflect the majority opinion, which is that typology is bunk.

Well I think it probably does have to do with being a P (hesitant to make a quick decision without all the info, yes) and F (wanting to look at people holistically) and maybe even to assert my individuality...but I don't have any wish to reflect the majority opinion that typology is bunk, that was never my intention. Rather I want to take all the information, consider all sides, and talk to different people and get their perspectives. I always seem to want to check my reality up against other people if I can't up against "the real world."





This is my vision. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My vision is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. My vision, without me, is useless. Without my vision, I am useless. I must make my vision true. I must see further than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must see him before he sees me. I won't, however, for I have inferior Se.

;) :laugh:
 

Thalassa

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Marm thinks I'm cool! :cheese:

:yes: :banana: of course!

This more Ni than Ne. Ne will take lots of disparate events/objects/observations and see "patterns" in them. Often there is a goal of uniting all of these observations into a single pattern, a single theory, that describes all of them. Ni is more about wanting to understand a particular thing in many different ways, comparing perspectives.

I see

Se :hi:


More Se :devil:




I'd disagree. This continuous pretension that having a curious mind (thus implying an intelligent mind) implies N, and that it's converse implies S is nonsense.

The S vs N dilemma is rather clear in you, Marm, because on one level, you are very interested in the abstract, but at the same time you'd like to cut through the bullshit and have a concrete explanation. This really feels like Se vs Ni, to me.

As you continue to relate, here:


Exactly. Translating abstract concepts into concrete concepts is difficult in the extreme. The whole concept of infinity is a good example. In abstract terms, infinity is very simple: it's an unbounded set. It's just a way of saying "goes on forever." No more, no less. Translating it into Se terms is where it breaks down, because then infinity starts meaning nonsensical things, like "infinity is the highest number" or "parallel lines intersect" or "really big, no, I mean really really big".

I'm not trying to make fun, here, but rather trying to give specific examples of turning a basic abstract concept into a concrete concept. The abstract concept needs to stay in the abstract space, the concrete concept needs to stay in the concrete space. So if we take the meaning of "infinity" w/r to Ni, and translate it into Se, it doesn't become "really really big", but rather it becomes, "OK, I don't need to worry about reaching the end of this any time soon," or "Hmm, I just did some bad math, because it says I should have infinite money, now." Similarly, the Se concept of "this seems to go on forever" translates into the Ni-abstraction of "Hmm, this may very well be infinite, unbounded."

I recall once Whatever also gave this explanation: her Ne and Se are both high, and she decided that she preferred ESTP over ENTP, even though she was capable of using both, and wondered if I was the same...but between NFP and SFP instead of STP and NTP.

I do relate to some of these descriptions of Ni, though. Really, I do, so I find this interesting and enlightening.

As for Ne vs Ni, let me relate a long discussion I had last night IRL with an ENFP of our mutual acquaintance. She was busily digesting the contents of several books, including "A Course In Miracles," "The Four Agreements" and the "Tao Te Ching." Curious, I pointed out a section of the Tao and asked what she thought. I expected she'd take 15-30 minutes going over it and tell me what thoughts the text invoked.

Nope.

She read it in about 60 seconds and said, "Benevolent detachment."

I just looked at her funny. "Um, sort of, but there's a lot more to it, than that."

"It's all just benevolent detachment. You see it here, and in the Four Agreements and in Buddhism and several other religions. You just split off yourself from the real world, and then you see the truth."

"Um, no. It really isn't just that," I replied. "There are so many ideas here, in this section of the Tao. For example, the 'Practice not-doing, and everything will fall into place.' What does that mean to you?"

"Benevolent detachment."

As Ne, she is pulling ideas in from all over, and synthesizing them into a single concrete understanding, trying to find the unifying truth in all of them.

As Ni, I chose that particular line about "Practice not-doing," because that is exactly what I do when I think. When I don't try to think, my thinking falls into place. If I try to think hard, it just doesn't. By "not-thinking," I get my best thinking done. And this attitude works in other aspects of one's life.

E.g., a dancer dances (Se), but doesn't actually "think" about dancing, doesn't actually "try" to dance, but she just dances, seemingly effortlessly; the dancer is the dance. If she were trying to dance, or thinking hard about dancing, you'd see the flaws. It would look wrong. Instead, she reaches a level of understanding/skill that she is "not-dancing", and thus dances very well. (I point out this Se example to show how it is quite compatible with the Ni perspective.)

Yet Ne glosses all of this over, looking for its version of the "underlying pattern" and gets "benevolent detachment."

I hope this helps you with your self-insights, Marm, and gives the rest of your a better understanding of what Ni "really is."

Yes, it does help a lot. Greatly. Thank you.
 

Thalassa

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I would suggest you use far more Si than most ENFPs. It makes you more introverted than most. You might also find you almost balance Ne with Si-thus your innate interest in pursuing the abstract possibilities simply for the sake of landscape extension-Ne, is countered by a cognitive impetus to preserve what you understand to be true-Si. Mid-strong judging functions, especially the Te, might come across as wanting to reach a decision quickly, yet later be open to changes in that decision openly due to new Ne content...but you also stick very strongly to what you believe to be true in spite of others lack of approval-a strong Fi.

Just my 2c.

Yeah makes sense...and it's something I've even said myself "I have an awful lot of Si for an ENFP!!!!"

BUT THIS, THIS QUOTE FROM Z...

Just a week or two ago, in describing to my girlfriend why I and other Ni doms sometimes have a somewhat "blank" look on our face, I said it was because my thoughts on the matter are still forming.

The stuff inside my head has still not congealed into any solid substance, it hasn't yet reached that crystallized state, the lightning has not yet struck. But then, all of a sudden, *boom* it's there. And I've got something in mind.

This is basically kind of what I was trying to explain to Kalach when I was calling myself "slow"...this process right here.

And I have those "boom" moments, too. I have had two of them lately, on big questions I've been asking myself for months and there seemed no definitive answer in sight. They just come almost out of nowhere...I just don't know what to do for months, then suddenly I do??!

Oh...and a P.S. to PeaceBaby...I appreciate what you're saying, I really do...and I'm not offended at all lol. :D

I just know I'm no ExxJ, I'm so much more introverted than that IRL, and I'm pretty sure I don't have Fe. If I do have Fe, I'm not an Fe dom. Thanks, though. Maybe you're seeing Ni and Se like Uumlau with a strong F function. :shrug:
 

Zarathustra

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BUT THIS, THIS QUOTE FROM Z...

This is basically kind of what I was trying to explain to Kalach when I was calling myself "slow"...this process right here.

And I have those "boom" moments, too. I have had two of them lately, on big questions I've been asking myself for months and there seemed no definitive answer in sight. They just come almost out of nowhere...I just don't know what to do for months, then suddenly I do??!

Tertiary Ni, perhaps?

Btw, I don't quite understand why, if ENFP and ISFP are both possibilities you're considering, why INFP wouldn't be one as well...

Just my $.02...


http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...ve-functions/36241-ni-hell-3.html#post1369856
 
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Thalassa

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Tertiary Ni, perhaps?

Btw, I don't quite understand why, if ENFP and ISFP are both possibilities you're considering, why INFP wouldn't be one as well...

Just my $.02...

Because ENFP is introverted extrovert and ISFP is extroverted introvert.

INFP is just introverted, usually, and I'm more borderline. Also, I appear to be using either Se or Te more than an INFP would.
 
G

Ginkgo

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That's how I think. I refuse to think there's absolute truth in one theory, meshing things together and trying to look at what is common inside of them is what works for me. I lean more toward function theory, but I never claimed to be an expert.

There is no absolute truth in a single theory. The more theories you use, the more likely you will be to solve the riddle of your entire personality. However, using multiple typological systems to solve the riddle of a single type, as you seem to be doing, isn't going to produce correct results. For instance, if you attempt to use the fact that you're enneagram 4 to determine your MBTI type, you're going to deduct the likelihood of some possibilities, but the possibilities of INFP, ENFP, ENFJ, INFJ, and several others would still exist. Right? The same rule applies to temperaments (which are old as dirt, but still useful), socionics, MBTI, and pure Jungian typology.



You know what? I think other people's observations matter. That's where you and I differ, and I really don't get your attitude. That's what's not helpful - it's not your information, but the smug "I'm with Invisible Jim in my self-congratulating" tone with which it's delivered ..."OH ITS SAD"...you sound like fucking Solitary Walker looking down on all the folk typology peasants.

I'm just trying to deliver what I understand to you. I've seen you struggling with this for some time. Not only are you searching for your type(s), but you're also trying to behaviorally see of the suit fits. Acting like a type isn't going to turn you into that type, especially if that type is cognitive. I've tried it myself.

Anyway, addressing my tone or my attitude isn't going to magically make what I say untrue.

Go jerk off or something, pop a prozac, go away.

Uncalled for.
 

Thalassa

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There is no absolute truth in a single theory. The more theories you use, the more likely you will be to solve the riddle of your entire personality. However, using multiple typological systems to solve the riddle of a single type, as you seem to be doing, isn't going to produce correct results. For instance, if you attempt to use the fact that you're enneagram 4 to determine your MBTI type, you're going to deduct the likelihood of some possibilities, but the possibilities of INFP, ENFP, ENFJ, INFJ, and several others would still exist. Right? The same rule applies to temperaments (which are old as dirt, but still useful), socionics, MBTI, and pure Jungian typology.


I'm just trying to deliver what I understand to you. I've seen you struggling with this for some time. Not only are you searching for your type(s), but you're also trying to behaviorally see of the suit fits. Acting like a type isn't going to turn you into that type, especially if that type is cognitive. I've tried it myself.

Anyway, addressing my tone or my attitude isn't going to magically make what I say untrue.



Uncalled for.

I'm an ennegram 6, not 4, but I see what you're getting at. You're saying I'm not going to be the same type, necessarily, if I utilize different theories.

Thing is, I am trying to understand type theory by applying it to myself, because only then can I begin to apply it other people. I've noticed behavioral trends with types, whether you like that idea or not. I'd advise you to remember that the "truth" of what you're saying is relative and applies more to your opinion of what is true than to objective reality. Apparently pure cognitive functioning is your preferred method if you refrain from taking type-related behavior into account, that's what I would surmise.

I like getting other people's viewpoints - it's important to me and I learn from it. I just don't understand why you felt a need to attack that, and warp it into a faulty perception of me trying to get other people to tell me my type without my own reasoning. That's absurd, and I really don't know where you get that, unless you carry a distinct hostility toward considering other people's opinions in typing one's self.

I'm not trying to act like a particular type, I'm just being myself, but I'm not sure that's what you mean. Again, you seem to be implying that you do not rely on temperament theory at all, nor on communication styles, and rather prefer cognitive functioning, and are annoyed that I'm trying to figure out my own truth by mixing them together.

What interests me - even by cognitive theory - is that similar actions can be explained by different combinations of functions, for example Fi/Se/Ni could do something similar to Ne/Fi/Te if explained differently.

I'd like to draw pictures of cognitive functions and maybe then I'd be able to truly comprehend it on a more abstract level.

I'm not sure why my particular way of learning about or discussing the different type theories is really any of your concern, or why you appear to be judging it or be so frustrated about it.

If I'm going to assign a label myself or to other people, I want to be as thoroughly researched as possible and YES other people's theories and observations are part of that process for me.

I don't think I've fully decided which theory rings more true to me, though I've fairly ruled out Socionics for the most part.
 

PeaceBaby

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^ have you ever started a "What type is marmy" thread (I know it's been discussed here and there; just can't recall a specific thread off the top o' my head) ... even if so, perhaps a good time to revisit the question!
 

rav3n

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marmelade sunrise, have you considered the shadow functions of the ISFP? They're the same as an ESFJ and will manifest when the individual is under stress. When you lash out at people, it strongly reminds me of the two ESFJs I know in real life.
 

Coriolis

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It's how I recognize Ni-ers IRL ... a certain look in the eyes, distant and not quite present. The flash that occurs when the thoughts are interrupted, like a hailing back to reality.

Do you set aside time especially so you can ponder / float without any intrusions? Is it easy to access your Ni space even when in the middle of a group of people?
Even my SO catches me with this look, sometimes at the dinner table, but knows just to let me be until I'm ready for interruption.

I do set aside time for Ni based ruminations, but not nearly as much as I would like. It is amazing how easily I can fill large quantities of time with these mental explorations. Yes, ensuring the absence of intrusions is critical. I can access this "Ni space" when in a group, but only when I can get away with not directly participating or interacting, as in a large meeting or lecture. If there is any need for situation awareness, it is not worth trying. Better to stay in Te/Se space and be able to react to whatever transpires.
 

Thalassa

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marmelade sunrise, have you considered the shadow functions of the ISFP? They're the same as an ESFJ and will manifest when the individual is under stress. When you lash out at people, it strongly reminds me of the two ESFJs I know in real life.

So you're saying I'm ISFP with ESFJ shadow when I'm pissed off? Fe/Si/Ne/Ti coming from Fi/Se/Ni/Te ...yeah okay.

^ have you ever started a "What type is marmy" thread (I know it's been discussed here and there; just can't recall a specific thread off the top o' my head) ... even if so, perhaps a good time to revisit the question!

Yeah I'll go bump my "who thinks I'm a sensor thread" and stop my self-absorbed derailing.
 
G

Ginkgo

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Thing is, I am trying to understand type theory by applying it to myself, because only then can I begin to apply it other people.
Not exactly, but it certainly helps.
I've noticed behavioral trends with types, whether you like that idea or not.
I don't doubt that. I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with stacking your observations if they are untrue or don't fit together.
I'd advise you to remember that the "truth" of what you're saying is relative and applies more to your opinion of what is true than to objective reality. Apparently pure cognitive functioning is your preferred method if you refrain from taking type-related behavior into account, that's what I would surmise.

Firstly,the point of relativism his repeated, repeated, repeated, like Gregorian chants from the dark ages here on the forum. Secondly, that's irrelevant. Neither "calling me out" on having an opinion, nor saying that you don't appreciate my tone falsifies my claims.

I like getting other people's viewpoints - it's important to me and I learn from it. I just don't understand why you felt a need to attack that, and warp it into a faulty perception of me trying to get other people to tell me my type without my own reasoning. That's absurd, and I really don't know where you get that, unless you carry a distinct hostility toward considering other people's opinions in typing one's self.

I think it's unethical for anyone to tell another person what their type is. So, you say my opinion it's "faulty" and "absurd". Time and time again, when changing your type, you use the reasoning "Well, Edgar said I was type X" or "Sim said I was type Y".

I'm not trying to act like a particular type, I'm just being myself, but I'm not sure that's what you mean. Again, you seem to be implying that you do not rely on temperament theory at all, nor on communication styles, and rather prefer cognitive functioning, and are annoyed that I'm trying to figure out my own truth by mixing them together.

Even sim could see that you were trying to make some of your own synthetic Ni after typing yourself as an INFJ. Even I can see that after typing yourself as an SFP, you pay close attention to cataloging detail.

If I were to use anything, it would be ALL things. Just independently.

If you "mix" them all together into one convoluted approach, you're never going to be able to form a direct line of reasoning or reach a conclusion about their independent outcomes. It's going to be a garbled mess, hence your indecision on your own type.


I'm not sure why my particular way of learning about or discussing the different type theories is really any of your concern, or why you appear to be judging it or be so frustrated about it.

... Ok?
 

Thalassa

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I think it's unethical for anyone to tell another person what their type is. So, you say my opinion it's "faulty" and "absurd". Time and time again, when changing your type, you use the reasoning "Well, Edgar said I was type X" or "Sim said I was type Y".

so that's your ethic...but it's not mine. that's what I figured, and why I pointed out relativism. next.


Even sim could see that you were trying to make some of your own synthetic Ni after typing yourself as an INFJ. Even I can see that after typing yourself as an SFP, you pay close attention to cataloging detail.

No. This isn't true. This is totally your perception. "Manufacturing synthetic Ni"? WTF? I wouldn't even know how to do that.

I also kept an entire journal for a couple of years that was nothing but rich sensory detail. It still exists on livejournal, but thanks for letting me know that if I change my type, people imagine that they see different things, or perceive me a different way...it's long been my suspicion.



If you "mix" them all together into one convoluted approach, you're never going to be able to form a direct line of reasoning or reach a conclusion about their independent outcomes. It's going to be a garbled mess, hence your indecision on your own type.

okey-dokey, so you want me to just pick one? well, I'm sorry it gets on your nerves that I won't just pick one. I guess you can choose to ignore me, it's not like I'm PM-ing you or writing this on your wall...and if I were to do so, you could ask me to stop.
 
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