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[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Ni - What the hell is it?

rav3n

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:happy0065: Hilarious!

I won't disagree with any of your post. It is intensely interesting how cognitive processes can manifest, depending on order and strength.

Thanks for an interesting discussion.
 

Little Linguist

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No matter how many threads I read or how much info I accumulate, I am still puzzled by the differences between Ni and Ne.

I hope I get it one day.

Of course, I'm Ne. I know that. But what IS Ni??? Every time I read something, I say, "Well that's what *I* do...so what do you Ni-folks do???" :huh:
 
G

Ginkgo

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Ladies and Gentlebeans,

I find your lack of faith uninspiring. It seems you're sufficiently unfamiliar with "The Long View" that you've come to engineer ways to be assured other people be unfamiliar with it too. "Ni is just...", pfft. Ni is just Yo Momma, the long view you don't have.

If you would like to define Ni, consider not equating it with inadequate versions of your own functions. Or we can do your perception functions next.


Se: snacks.
Si: snacks from last week.
Ne: filling the crossword puzzle with more blanks.

I've heard that the best way to define Ni is by not defining it at all. That's it's very spirit.
 

uumlau

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I've heard that the best way to define Ni is by not defining it at all. That's it's very spirit.

Closer to its spirit would be a defining it with a Zen kōan, e.g., "Two hands clap and there is a sound. What is the sound of one hand?" Figuring out the real meaning of a koan is exactly the kind of task Ni is good at. Further, as noted in the Wiki link I just gave, "The master is not looking for a specific answer but for evidence that the disciple has grasped the state of mind expressed by the kōan itself." Ni is that ongoing attitude of looking at things in different ways, so that one can find the "right way" of looking at it.

A kōan is not meaningless or unanswerable. Rather, it doesn't make sense until you change your subjective context (attitude, perspective) into one that lets the kōan make sense. In the Ni case, the kōan could be "What is Ni?" and the act of trying to figure out what Ni is, is Ni. Ni is "the sound of one hand."
 

PeaceBaby

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There's an interesting corollary in this thread between Ni / Ne and Fi / Fe. Ne here is the function that can tend to presume "but I know about intuition; I do that" and Ni the one to say, "No, you just don't get it."

So since I feel like Fe doesn't get Fi, I accept that Ne doesn't really get Ni either. But it's a fascinating exploration nonetheless.

Ni is about shifting perspectives. It solves problems by focusing on seemingly simple ways in which they could be different, which outwardly manifests as a strange "knowing" or clarity of how things should be. It is different in outward appearance from Ne in that Ni users are very self-assured about their own view of how things should be. Ne is always looking for options about how things should be different, and always considering different perspectives and changing its mind.

Ni doesn't really link information together -- that's more akin to the Ne process of pattern-finding. What Ni itself does is analyze information by playing with its own perspective of it; as opposed to Ne, which links information to other seemingly unrelated environmental factors, weaving a new emerging pattern out of reality.

I like all that; nice Aleksei.

Fi consciously decides if something is good or bad.
Ni unconsciously links pieces of information together.

Why is Fi conscious and Ni unconscious?

Ne: There are always other perspectives and new meanings to discover
Ni: There is always a future to realize and a significance to be revealed. "Revealed" basically means "uncovered". So it's a matter of UNcovered versus DIScovered.

Yes, that's very nice too.

I have always thought of Ni as the microscope, and Ne as the telescope.

Ni says, if I look at this close enough, and long enough, from all the angles, the truth will be revealed to me, like a flower that blossoms. Ne says, if I look at the world and explore all the possibilities, I can find the answer, a truth, the solution.

Seriously....using FiNe makes Ni seem rather unimpressive to me. The demi-god status of it 'round these parts makes me roll my eyes. I like the simple descriptions, as there's no pretense of mystery or superiority. They actually make sense & ring true to me because of it. Of course, I hate having my Fi oversimplified, so I can understand why Ni-doms become all poetic in describing their precious thought process. :p

Haha, I know. There's that INTJ tendency to sound so darned sure too and in the process, somewhat condescending.

Ooooh, but here's a cushy sweetie hug from PB for any irascible INTJ's! :hug:

Behavior-wise, when dealing with others, the easiest way to spot Ni is the "context shifting." This concept of context shifting doesn't come straight from Jung, but it is present in the Myers-Briggs and Lenore Thomson literature, among others. It's useful to be aware of this effect both to spot it in others and to be aware of when doing it oneself if one is strongly Ni.

Yes, it's this sense that we just changed gears but I wasn't prepared for it, or that the rules are being re-written as we are discussing an issue.

I'm fairly sure that's Ne. It's finding new (objective) possibilities.

Yes, I was sure it was Ne but did want to leave room for alternate explanation. :)

Here's an example of Ni from my perspective, of the "spooky" sort. I was once watching one of those corny Twilight-Zone-like shows back in the 90s [Tales from the Crypt, if I recall correctly], where there is always a twist in the plot, usually totally unexpected. This particular story was about an old man who has died, his pretty trophy wife, and his two sons. There is also another son who left long ago, estranged, and is only mentioned in passing. They're arguing about the inheritance, and the sons don't want the trophy wife to have a share. Without going over the entire story, which I barely remember, I'll tell you my Ni insight. I thought, "Oh, the wife is really the missing son, with a sex change," after watching it for about 5 minutes.

Thanks for that great example uumlau.

That twist would annoy me frankly, because it rewrites an assumed gender role, and would only be understood, as you say, through the context shift. To me, it's a weak plot device.

Although, if I were watching the same show, I would wonder why the son was mentioned at all, would then infer that he would become a factor at some point or else would not be in the story, and then cycle through possibilities Ne-style to see what reasoning the writer had to place him in the plot at all and if there was reason as to when they chose to introduce his character.

But I confess: to me, if you have to rewrite the initial premise, the assumptive rules we started off with to explain your story, it's a pretty lame story. I don't mind being surprised, not at all. I think that kind of twist is cheap.

The most important aspect of Ni in this regard is that we don't disregard particular possibilities based conventional notions of likelihood, but rather we allow/disallow contexts based on whether they "work." As long as the context is self consistent (kind of like Ti), we'll keep an open mind about it. If it's the ONLY possible context, it sounds like we just predicted something magically, by "just knowing." It even feels like that to ourselves.

That's very thought-provoking, and @bold: I think that's the key - part of my reasoning will include a probability factor, so the least likely solution remains the least likely one, until I gain new evidence to the contrary. Not all ideas initially get the benefit of a level playing field, even if consistent, especially if they are patently ridiculous ideas that defy other "rules" - like those of human behaviour, for example.

So I guess you could say human (or Fi rules if you prefer) are the "trump card" for me. A story makes no sense if it regularly violates these tenets ... it's one of the reasons why I read so little fiction, because most writers have no concept on how to create this type of consistency.
 

OrangeAppled

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The more people try and make Ni seem all mystical, the more I think it's really lame and they're just trying to hide their unexceptional thought process behind some shroud of mystery.

Okay....if Feeling is a function, then & Fe & Fi are have the same function but with different attitudes, meaning they both judge value but Fe uses external standards & Fi uses an inner vision of the ideal ("primordial images" arising from the unconscious collective, blah blah blah). So this means both Ne & Ni as Intuition have the same function, but they have different attitudes, so Ne sees possibilities implied by external objects and Ni sees possibilities implied by images that arise from the unconscious. So this makes sense that Ne attempts to change the external world and Ni may just shift perspective.

Some Jung to consider...

Jung said:
Introverted and extroverted intuitives may be distinguished according to whether intuition is directed inwards, to the inner vision, or outwards, to action and achievement.

Jung on Ni said:
The remarkable indifference of the extraverted intuitive to external objects is shared by the introverted intuitive in relation to inner objects. Just as the extroverted intuitive is constantly scenting out new possibilities...so the introverted intuitive moves from image to image, chasing after every possibility in the teeming womb of the unconscious ...

This is why NFPs are obviously waaay cooler than NFJs - we use TWO abstract thought processes as our main forms of cognition, and NFJs just use one, coupled with Fe which is so straight-forward (even if its shallow charm is addictive). Muwhaha!
 

Southern Kross

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The more people try and make Ni seem all mystical, the more I think it's really lame and they're just trying to hide their unexceptional thought process behind some shroud of mystery.

Okay....if Feeling is a function, then & Fe & Fi are have the same function but with different attitudes, meaning they both judge value but Fe uses external standards & Fi uses an inner vision of the ideal ("primordial images" arising from the unconscious collective, blah blah blah). So this means both Ne & Ni as Intuition have the same function, but they have different attitudes, so Ne sees possibilities implied by external objects and Ni sees possibilities implied by images that arise from the unconscious. So this makes sense that Ne attempts to change the external world and Ni may just shift perspective.

This is why NFPs are obviously waaay cooler than NFJs - we use TWO abstract thought processes as our main forms of cognition, and NFJs just use one, coupled with Fe which is so straight-forward (even if its shallow charm is addictive). Muwhaha!
Interesting. Then you think Ni is more about realisation and acceptance of things as they are, whereas Ne is naturally inclined to pursue change and reformation?

Definitely way cooler! We're so supremely vague and impractical! :-D
 

OrangeAppled

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Interesting. Then you think Ni is more about realisation and acceptance of things as they are, whereas Ne is naturally inclined to pursue change and reformation?

Definitely way cooler! We're so supremely vague and impractical! :-D

I think Ne pursues external change for the sake of it & Ni shifts perspective for the sake of it (not content with things as they are, but content to explore the inner image only), but when the J function comes in to play they have actual goals beyond exploration, which means the Ni perspective shift may lead to a motivation to do something in the external world or to relate it to something to come to a judgment.

I have suggested before that INFPs are possibly the most ornamental type. We're like art - we require no practical function :p.
 

uumlau

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I think Ne pursues external change for the sake of it & Ni shifts perspective for the sake of it (not content with things as they are, but content to explore the inner image only), but when the J function comes in to play they have actual goals beyond exploration, which means the Ni perspective shift may lead to a motivation to do something in the external world or to relate it to something to come to a judgment.

I have suggested before that INFPs are possibly the most ornamental type. We're like art - we require no practical function :p.

I'm not sure if "pursues external change" is quite correct, but close. Your suggestion of "Ni shifts perspective for the sake of it" is pretty darn good, at least w/r to understanding Ni as a dominant function. It's probably just "shifting perspective" considered as a function alone, rather than as a type. Might I suggest "ponders external possibilities" for Ne? I've always had a sense of looking for new things that don't necessarily exist, for Ne, not merely acting on and changing the world, which is more of a Te/Fe thing.


Oooh, two abstract functions, eh? Well try Ni + Fi on for size, and trying to explain those ideas to the rest of creation! Bwahahahah!
 

Zarathustra

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The more people try and make Ni seem all mystical, the more I think it's really lame and they're just trying to hide their unexceptional thought process behind some shroud of mystery.

The more I hear this, the more I see an image of a crusty old blind man griping about how eyesight must be overrated...

Must be my mystical Ni showing me the truth again... :cheese:

So this means both Ne & Ni as Intuition have the same function, but they have different attitudes, so Ne sees possibilities implied by external objects and Ni sees possibilities implied by images that arise from the unconscious.

For one quick, short sentence, this is actually a decent summary.

A lot gets left out though, when you reduce it to just one sentence.

I mean, we're not talking about something as simple as Fi here...

So this makes sense that Ne attempts to change the external world and Ni may just shift perspective.

Hmmm... Well, if you go by strict MBTI theory, Ne shouldn't really be trying to change anything, as it is not a judging function...

I've seen other theories, though, like the "Mindframes" one, that keeps the eight functions/mindframes, but throws out the Judging vs. Perceiving dichotomy for an Action vs. Thinking one.

In that theory, the extroverted functions/mindframes are the "Action" functions/mindframes, while the introverted functions/mindframes are the "Thinking" functions/mindframes.

Under that theory, Ne is called "charisma" (Ni is called "insight"), and Ne/charisma would very much fit into your idea of wanting/trying to enact change.

This is why NFPs are obviously waaay cooler than NFJs - we use TWO abstract thought processes as our main forms of cognition, and NFJs just use one, coupled with Fe which is so straight-forward (even if its shallow charm is addictive). Muwhaha!
But Ni is so much cooler than Ne in the same way Fi is cooler than Fe.

Ti is just annoying and stupid, so Te is definitely preferable.

Also, T before F is a must, as head must come before heart, unless you want to be an irrational fool.

Which is why INTJs are way cooler than both NFJs and NFPs... not to mention NTPs...

Oh yeah, and Se kicks ass too.

:tongue10:


I'm not sure if "pursues external change" is quite correct, but close.

It all comes down to the theory, I guess...

This is the problem with theory goggles...

If you go by MBTI theory, then you can explain it this way.

If you by Mindframes' theory, then you can explain it the other way.

:shrug:

Oooh, two abstract functions, eh? Well try Ni + Fi on for size, and trying to explain those ideas to the rest of creation! Bwahahahah!

Exactly.
 

LunarMoon

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So much psychobable in this thread...

Of course, I'm Ne. I know that. But what IS Ni??? Every time I read something, I say, "Well that's what *I* do...so what do you Ni-folks do???" :huh:
We create long, mystical diatribes about Ni’s relation to subconscious action and the self actualization of human potential.

I’ve always thought of Ni as relating to what xNxJs do have a tendency to do. Ni provides the ability for an individual to creatively plan for the future. This is why INTJs will often spend far longer constructing an aesthetically pleasing plan, to the point of not even acting upon it, while an ENTJ is much more likely to create a rough outline and jump into the situation from there. INTJs, being Ni-doms, use Ni to a greater extent than we do and thus place a larger focus on Ni, while for ENTJs it’s quite the opposite. We’ll generally put a plan into action, using a large amount of data, while relying on Ni as back up.

It’s a difference in quantity: an ENTJ will create a 10-page business plan, while an INTJ will create 20. One INTJ put it succinctly by stating that while an ENTJ will often make far more time-costing errors when they act out their plan than the INTJ, the ENTJ will, nonetheless, typically remain ahead as he put the plan into action much sooner.

For INFJs and ENFJs, it’s much the same, since Ni merely acts as a way to gather information and construct a plan while the judging function, either Te or Fe, acts to bring it into reality. So while an ENTJ may use his combination of Te and Ni to construct a business plan or to predict the future value of stocks, the ENFJ will use her Fe and Ni combination to organize a social gathering or to figure out a way to resolve a conflict peacefully and civilly.

On another note, the difference between Si and Ni users can be summarized by acknowledging that while a Ni user will construct plan by combining a collection of data and relating them to each other to create a coherent whole, Si is focused upon analyzing what has worked in the past and then using the Judging function to act upon it. "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it” , is almost a statement upon Si.
 

highlander

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Foreseeing implications, transformations, and likely effects

I think Ni tends to be focused on the big picture and the future. It involves transforming a situation or problem with a meta perspective and comes up with a different or new way of seeing things. You look at things broadly, holistically, synthesizing lots of different pieces of information or concepts, perhaps identifying patterns in the complexity. You come up with an answer, not sure as to how you got it, and then tend to work backwards to prove it or communicate to others. You come up with a key insight as to why a particular thing happens or vision/sense/feeling as to what will happen in the future.

No matter how many threads I read or how much info I accumulate, I am still puzzled by the differences between Ni and Ne.

I hope I get it one day.

Of course, I'm Ne. I know that. But what IS Ni??? Every time I read something, I say, "Well that's what *I* do...so what do you Ni-folks do???" :huh:

It is simple I believe. You can think of Ne as "diverging" and Ni as "converging". Ne looks for more and more possibilities and Ni hones in on the one it thinks is important.

While Ni may have a singular unshakable vision, Ne wants to explore all of the possibilities.
 

skylights

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Zarathustra said:
a crusty old blind man griping about how eyesight must be overrated...

Must be my mystical Ni showing me the truth again...

psh Ni is like a crusty old blind man.

only "sees" what it wants to, and doesn't do anything about it except complain that no one else gets it!

:tongue10:



edit - WOOO post 1111! i should have saved this for 11/11/11. damn it.
 

OrangeAppled

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I'm not sure if "pursues external change" is quite correct, but close. Your suggestion of "Ni shifts perspective for the sake of it" is pretty darn good, at least w/r to understanding Ni as a dominant function. It's probably just "shifting perspective" considered as a function alone, rather than as a type. Might I suggest "ponders external possibilities" for Ne? I've always had a sense of looking for new things that don't necessarily exist, for Ne, not merely acting on and changing the world, which is more of a Te/Fe thing.


Oooh, two abstract functions, eh? Well try Ni + Fi on for size, and trying to explain those ideas to the rest of creation! Bwahahahah!


Zarathustra said:
Hmmm... Well, if you go by strict MBTI theory, Ne shouldn't really be trying to change anything, as it is not a judging function...

But Ni is so much cooler than Ne in the same way Fi is cooler than Fe.

Ti is just annoying and stupid, so Te is definitely preferable.

Also, T before F is a must, as head must come before heart, unless you want to be an irrational fool.

Which is why INTJs are way cooler than both NFJs and NFPs... not to mention NTPs...

Oh yeah, and Se kicks ass too.

Well, I was referencing the Jung quote on the "change" thing....I think it means change in a conceptual way, not literal action. So pretty much the same thing as searching new possibilities, yes.

Pleeeease....your aux function is Te, pretty much the embodiment of practicality. Bo-or-ing! Face it, you'll never be abstract to the point of sheer uselessness & incomprehensibleness (is that a word?) like an INFP. We win! Er....
 

Zarathustra

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Awwwwww... there's the other voice of "Why does Ni get to seem so special and I don't!"ness...

It's ok... we all know you're just jealous... it's so cute how your squishy little Ne gets all upset that she can't comprehend her big brother... :hug:
 

skylights

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^ actually i think it's more like irritated/jealous Fi calls a spade a dirty old hand shovel. ;)

Ni can't be a brother anyway... no P-ness...
 

wildcat

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Wow. I'm confused. One person says Ni is about looking at things from different perspectives and another says Ne explores all possibilities while Ni is focused on a singular vision.

Ni is P under dichotomy of J. There is no contradiction.
 

Thalassa

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Awwwwww... there's the other voice of "Why does Ni get to seem so special and I don't!"ness...

It's ok... we all know you're just jealous... it's so cute how your squishy little Ne gets all upset that she can't comprehend her big brother... :hug:

Ni is not synonymous with narcissistic asshole, no matter how much you guys are trying to argue that point. :coffee:
 

Kalach

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Okay look, here's the way it works: the answers have already been given. Did anyone notice that? If you did, you're Ni. If you didn't, Ni's pretentious.

And how is it that focus is being understood as limit? "Ni just..." focuses on the one point? It focuses on your ass. Ni is introverted, you morons, not focused on one points. Ni doesn't join together information? Again, pull your head out of your extroverted tool set. "Information" does not mean only concrete data points. That's what you join together. What I join together is concepts. Abstract renderings, embodied as they appear to me in realistic musings, but still not "information", right?

Dudes, seriously, if you're going to come up with significant "Ni is just..." stories, you could do with being able to see before I do where you're drawing your inspirations. (And in as much as you're primarily using extroverted tools to get you're pictures, you're screwing yourselves from the beginning by only discovering what Ni users look like. And displaying your inabilities. This story about pretension, it amounts to "If I tried doing what they say they're doing, I know I'd be making it all up and being shallow.")

So, humperdinks, fire up some definition that actually defines, rather than merely relates or collates. Account for the existence of the long view.


And I warn you now--adequate use of extroverted tools, ahoy--, almost any limitation you assert will apply in form to your own functions. If you are capable of discovering truth or virtue with your introverted function, just what do you think I'm not capable of performing with mine?
 
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