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  1. #881
    Don't mind me. Forever's Avatar
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    Would Ni be related/attached to certain kind of thought disorders? (Psychosis)
    obviously you're going to get nothing from reading this

  2. #882

    Default The role of Ni vs Ne

    Look at the original roots of the words introverted and extroverted.

    The reason Ni is often so misunderstood is because it's usually misapplied to the realm that Ne occurs in, but Ni is in the internal realm. It's intuition introverted. Jung called it the subject. So people actually do know its definition. What they're still wanting are the right examples, but examples won't tell you the real definition or essence of it--they break away from the fundamental cognition of what it simply means. The definition of Ni is as follows:

    Ni is grasping the essence of things in thought. It focuses on the big picture while turning inward, while intro-verting. Ni types are not great at grasping the essence and nature of things going on around them, they don't have insight about reading the external situation like Ne types do. Ne on the other hand, grasps the underlying essence of things happening in the outside situation, the nature and big picture of what's occurring and being seen in the moment. This is why we ultimately use multiple functions, and this is where the confusion comes from. Similarly with Ti, we grasp the logic and rationale behind things in thought, in inward reflection and contemplation, while with Te, we grasp the logic and rationale of things as they happen in action and order, as we work with and utilize them. They're the same function "Logic," just applied to turning our mind either inwardly, or turning our mind outwardly towards things in their external form as they're happening. This is especially how Jung and the Socionicists recognize the functions. Ni is intuition of greater thoughts and insights about the big picture, while Ne attunes to the big picture of what's happening with external stimuli--it spots opportunities and potential, and intuitively grasps what's really happening behind a situation or moment, just like Se has a literal take on what's happening in a situation. We use multiple of these functions, but we tend to be most fluent in the one we prefer that type of information of that realm in, Introversion or Extroversion, and typically for instance, Ni types aren't usually that great with Ne, and Ne types aren't usually that great with focusing in on Ni (but it differs from person-to-person.) Ultimately Ni is attuned to a different topic and wavelength than Ne, and that is why it's a wholly separate function of cognitive proficiency. It does not reach out and perceive the outside with instinct, sharpness and ingenuity like Ne, but submerges deeply into visions and reflections of universal truths. Your most fluent function usually becomes most apparent to you when you either enter into deep thought (if you're an introvert), or when you enter into extroverted stimulation (if you're an extrovert.) In fact this is the best way to determine your primary function, if you're at all confused or think you use multiple functions, which ultimately we all do.

    Another exemplary way of determining your primary function is to review your consistent test results. Intuitive primary types usually score the highest in intuition and are typically well-balanced in thinking and feeling, while other types, like thinkers, score their T much higher than other dichotomies. This emphasizes and suggests what their primary nature is focused on. One good example for consideration is the difference between the INxJ vs the INTP, because both these types introvert, they both go frequently into the internal realm of thought. One however, the Ni, is primarily submerged in thinking about the nature and main idea behind things, the generalities of life, while the other, the Ti, is primarily submerged in pondering the logic, rationale and workings behind things. It's a big difference. Neither Ni or Ti can view the nature or rationale of things as they're occurring outside, in real life. They think about them. This is what all introverts do, all the time. If you are properly discerning, it should start to click which function you yourself primarily attune to, and which of them you mostly attune outwardly with. While we use all the functions, your primary function is your inherent cognitive nature, it is something that purely cannot be disguised or reworded into something other than what it just is, for you. It is something you know principally above all, because it's the primary way you think about things.

    If you're adhering mostly to a strict typology of preferences such as Keirsey Temperament Sorter, like J vs P, where J's intuition converges to a single decisive viewpoint, and P's intuition is open to possibilities, you're not going to be able to accurately grasp type via functions as they occur in individuals realistically. You may be utilizing a function other than the function your strict dichotomal type awards you. This is why newer theories like JCF in MBTI, and Socionics, have gained richer grounds in understanding peoples' real cognitive nature.



    The extroverted realm vs the introverted realm: Extroverted functions deal with information as it comes in, while introverted functions deal with the cycle of thought.
    Last edited by 527468; 11-06-2016 at 03:32 PM.

  3. #883
    one way trip Abendrot's Avatar
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    Introverted Intuition:
    - Prefers to converge to one view
    - Seeks to reduce things to their essence and fit it into a big picture
    - Adept at shifting paradigms

    Pretty much everything else I've heard about it reeks of special snowflake syndrome.
    The mind is its own place and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven - John Milton

  4. #884
    Don't mind me. Forever's Avatar
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    Introverted Intuition is the seeing the images that are formed from external stimuli. Some may be too faint to see others are clearer and more pronounced. It is watching a gallery of artwork you've never seen before and it can be explored through many ways by trying to understand the object in your minds eye. Your own mind knows the meaning of the subjective world inside from that viewpoint.

    It is good to be patient with these impressions as they are heavy in meaning and are not meant to be taken lightly. For INJ's they should be the ones most concerned with this inner realm as this is what they should follow if they want to have a more fulfilling life.

    Many of my mistakes in life has been not trying to follow this dominant function instead being tricked by my inferior extroverted sensing which wants it here and now and reeks of impatience or at least it's the culture I have now grown up in and that is partly to blame. Doesn't mean I can't change though.
    obviously you're going to get nothing from reading this
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  5. #885
    Unapologetically Curious Enthusiastic_Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever View Post
    Introverted Intuition is the seeing the images that are formed from external stimuli. Some may be too faint to see others are clearer and more pronounced. It is watching a gallery of artwork you've never seen before and it can be explored through many ways by trying to understand the object in your minds eye. Your own mind knows the meaning of the subjective world inside from that viewpoint.

    It is good to be patient with these impressions as they are heavy in meaning and are not meant to be taken lightly. For INJ's they should be the ones most concerned with this inner realm as this is what they should follow if they want to have a more fulfilling life.

    Many of my mistakes in life has been not trying to follow this dominant function instead being tricked by my inferior extroverted sensing which wants it here and now and reeks of impatience or at least it's the culture I have now grown up in and that is partly to blame. Doesn't mean I can't change though.
    What I like about the above that I bolded, is that it is very nearly how I describe my use of Si. I understand things in terms of photographs and impressions. Since it's internalized, the impressions, though taken from the outside realm, are still very much internalized and subjective.

    Just as there are some intriguing similarities between Ne and Se, I am sure the same can be said between Ni and Si. The only difference being, that Ni looks beneath, and Si doesn't. In my discussions with people on the forum, I realized Ne and Se are essentially looking at the same things, but extracting data differently. I would go so far in saying the N/S divide isn't actually all that wide.

    Alright shoot, well I didn't mean to go off on thought there , your wording just intrigued me.
    The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams
    -Eleanor Roosevelt
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  6. #886
    one way trip Abendrot's Avatar
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    As I understand it, Ni often takes on a visual nature especially for INFJs, but this is not a defining characteristic of Ni. I believe seeing Images that are derived from external stimuli (memory) is more characteristic of Si than Ni. If it has a visual nature, Ni sees images which are not derived from external stimuli, but rather arise from the depths of the unconscious.

    I don't think visual thinking is by any means exclusive to Ni or Si either, as 75% of the population uses visual thinking to some degree.
    Visual thinking - Wikipedia

    Research by child development theorist Linda Kreger Silverman suggests that less than 30% of the population strongly uses visual/spatial thinking, another 45% uses both visual/spatial thinking and thinking in the form of words, and 25% thinks exclusively in words. According to Kreger Silverman, of the 30% of the general population who use visual/spatial thinking, only a small percentage would use this style over and above all other forms of thinking, and can be said to be true "picture thinkers".[2]
    The mind is its own place and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven - John Milton

  7. #887
    Don't mind me. Forever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthusiastic_Dreamer View Post
    What I like about the above that I bolded, is that it is very nearly how I describe my use of Si. I understand things in terms of photographs and impressions. Since it's internalized, the impressions, though taken from the outside realm, are still very much internalized and subjective.

    Just as there are some intriguing similarities between Ne and Se, I am sure the same can be said between Ni and Si. The only difference being, that Ni looks beneath, and Si doesn't. In my discussions with people on the forum, I realized Ne and Se are essentially looking at the same things, but extracting data differently. I would go so far in saying the N/S divide isn't actually all that wide.

    Alright shoot, well I didn't mean to go off on thought there , your wording just intrigued me.
    Introverted Sensation focuses on the archetype of the sensations it collects. That's why their stories can be so vivid, every life experience adds on to their memory making very life-like memories.
    Introved Intuition focuses on the archetype of the meaning of events. Ni can recall events and may be past-oriented in that way. They take the essence or the core of those events and synthesize it into a pattern ready to predict whatever life comes at them.

    Now for both Ni and Si they're introverted and will only be as accurate as much as their extroverted counterpart fills it in for them. Ni users can be very adept so long as they keep fulfilling their auxiliary functions' goals. Without it, they're clueless. The image recall is for Ni and Si users to figure out how to predict their own futures. Ni with patterns, Si with experience.

    Overall, Si is better than Ni when it comes to specialization, as Si has the specifics and Ni is merely an outline. Ni balances Si out by being ready for more experiences than Si will be. Both types will have a difficult time throwing out their own libraries of knowledge if something traumatic happens or something so revolutionary happens getting them both out of sync.

    Sometimes the image isn't so heavily needed as the user can re-reference their past observations several times without having to see the image and continue on. Both areas of perception are very quick and do not need to be looked at for long if doing a task already seen before.

    Now here's the big takeoff:
    What the hell is the image you see in your head Ni user?
    I can't speak for everyone but I see something combined with real-time movement of what you can so call sensory data making pieces of abstract artwork, some more easily recognizable and others harder to describe. To describe one's vision is pretty much nonsense as it's subjective content from unconscious to the Ni user. Jung says your dreams are messages from your unconscious balancing the conscious aspect of your mind. Sometimes how the Ni user acts or receives events may be very dream-like for example:

    While ignoring college for a while, I'd always hit every single red light on a crosswalk. Or I'd forget always one thing. These patterns the unconscious can not only be manifested in the psyche, but also in reality. It may be the Ni who only sees external patterns concentrated towards the individual user. Others may see it as God punishing them or the universe is at an imbalance, whatever your view, the unconscious is not something to be messed with.

    To understand Ni really at its core, understand the collective unconscious and the individual unconscious. Ni is the bridge between human-viewed-like manifestations and the true reality. We as a human species have not evolved enough for our conscious aspect of ourselves to be complete and whole, therefore we as humans are unconsciously dependent on our unconscious. There are still those who fall ill who have split psyches, and psychology is still a new science waited to be fleshed out.
    obviously you're going to get nothing from reading this
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  8. #888
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    @Forever Fantastic post!
    "Charlotte sometimes dreams a wall around herself. But it's always with love - So much love it looks like everything else. Charlotte Sometimes - So far away, glass sealed and pretty." - The Cure

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx - 451| RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive
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  9. #889
    Don't mind me. Forever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    @Forever Fantastic post!
    Thank you OrangeAppled! it just felt right to share my knowledge of it at this time.
    obviously you're going to get nothing from reading this

  10. #890
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Let me explain this thread.

    First, go read this link: Abstraction, intuition, and the “monad tutorial fallacy” | blog :: Brent -> [String]

    You don't need to know what a monad is. That's not the point. The point is what would you need to do in order to understand a monad?

    It's just like this thread. Just as someone who understands monads tries to explain them in terms of "It's easy: a monad is like a burrito!", it's just as unclear when someone says, "Ni is like <fill in the blank>". The intuition is NOT the abstraction. The intuition is a mental construct that enables YOU to understand the abstraction.

    The irony with Ni is that we end up in a deep rabbit hole of intuitions about intuitions about intuitions about intuitions of Ni, none of which are Ni, per se. They can only point to it, and they can only do so in a half-assed way. As with the metaphor of the hand pointing at the moon, we become obsessed with the hand and ignore the moon.

    So, what do you need to do to really understand what Ni is like, what Ni is good at? Well, try to figure out exactly what a monad is. Or perhaps start off with functors, which are its elemental building blocks. In general, any task where you have to figure out some kind of high level abstract pattern which is really difficult to explain in words, but you can learn by playing with it and using it in context. In the hand-moon metaphor, you need to actually turn your head to look at the moon and ignore the fucking hand.

    If you manage to figure out what a monad or functor to such a level that you can explain it to someone else who understands them already. When you get to that level, you'll be able to share your analogy whether it's burritos or whatever, and they'll just get it, because they understand the concept you're trying to describe in the first place.

    Now, imagine being able to do that without really trying and applying it to (almost) everything, even things that are plain as the nose on your face and don't need that level of abstraction: that's Ni.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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