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  1. #871
    was here that's not my name's Avatar
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    Since its my tertiary function it might work differently for me than for you INxJ types, but basically what happens to me is the sum of all my observations are subconsciously stored and analyzed and without purposefully using logic or reasoning I come to a conclusion using all the bits of information I've collected. It's almost like I don't have control over it, it just does what it does. What I can then do is think back through my day or through the relevant information I've collected to see how I got there, but I have to get there unconsciously first before I work my way back and figure out why. Note: this isn't the only or even main way I come to conclusions, but it is the way I come to my more profound and life-effecting ones.

    Can any other ISTPs relate to this?
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  2. #872
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    Im out, its been fun
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  3. #873
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Well, to use your "stepping into a stream of thoughts" analogy ...

    Ni dom = "diving into a stream of thoughts"
    Ni aux = "wading into a stream of thoughts"
    Ni tert = "stepping into a stream of thoughts"
    Ni inferior = "sticking your tow into a stream of thoughts and pulling it right out because it's too cold"


    The thing is, as I mention in other threads about feeling and Fi for Te types, Te tends to push away those feelings and ignore them, but the truth is, those feelings are not only really your feelings, they're really you, just as much "you" as your thinking side.

    That stream of thoughts you're stepping into really ARE your thoughts, that really is you thinking. It only feels alien because a lot of the thoughts in there are things that you will never, ever say. Your conscious mind edits those thoughts. But that doesn't stop you from thinking them.
    So...as a Ti dom I only step into my thoughts? I am so confused now. How exactly to I dive into them?

    As a side note sometimes I wonder how many holes Ni has to fill in with inferior Se
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  4. #874
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    So...as a Ti dom I only step into my thoughts? I am so confused now. How exactly to I dive into them?
    With Ti.

    With Ni, it's like stepping into someone else's thoughts.

    As a side note sometimes I wonder how many holes Ni has to fill in with inferior Se
    Tell me about it.

    It's a bit along the lines of REALLY having to rely on your peripheral vision. You're not exactly looking AT anything, so everything in your field of view is "peripheral", so to speak.

    As some very funny cat videos show, peripheral vision can trigger some very instinctual reactions. Specifically, look up the cucumber vs cat videos. Cats will be SHOCKED to notice that big dark shadow that appeared from nowhere but is suddenly now there.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  5. #875
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    With Ti.

    With Ni, it's like stepping into someone else's thoughts.
    Got it, both are easy for me. Steeping into someone elses emotions are nigh impossible. Soooo... I have devised a logical frame work rto understand and that which I don't I smile and nod




    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Tell me about it.

    It's a bit along the lines of REALLY having to rely on your peripheral vision. You're not exactly looking AT anything, so everything in your field of view is "peripheral", so to speak.

    As some very funny cat videos show, peripheral vision can trigger some very instinctual reactions. Specifically, look up the cucumber vs cat videos. Cats will be SHOCKED to notice that big dark shadow that appeared from nowhere but is suddenly now there.
    I don't get that as I see everything, it just so fast that its not really analyzed as an Si does. Like I have mentioned before, I was driving to training with an ISTJ. We both saw a wreck, he said I wonder what happened...I responded the guy hit the pole. The car was still up against the pole. I got accused of being a smart-ass avoidance of where I don't feel like going...I don't do group mentally masterbation with another man, especially not in a car. When things get good is when men run off into ditches.
    Im out, its been fun

  6. #876
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Specifically, look up the cucumber vs cat videos.
    Mkay







    @ OP & THREAD


    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft
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  7. #877
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Well, to use your "stepping into a stream of thoughts" analogy ...

    Ni dom = "diving into a stream of thoughts"
    Ni aux = "wading into a stream of thoughts"
    Ni tert = "stepping into a stream of thoughts"
    Ni inferior = "sticking your tow into a stream of thoughts and pulling it right out because it's too cold"


    The thing is, as I mention in other threads about feeling and Fi for Te types, Te tends to push away those feelings and ignore them, but the truth is, those feelings are not only really your feelings, they're really you, just as much "you" as your thinking side.

    That stream of thoughts you're stepping into really ARE your thoughts, that really is you thinking. It only feels alien because a lot of the thoughts in there are things that you will never, ever say. Your conscious mind edits those thoughts. But that doesn't stop you from thinking them.
    This is interesting.

    I'm curious what is your general attitude towards Jung's descriptions of the unconscious. My read of it was that it was something that we participate in, rather than it being particular to any one of us. Or rather individual unconscious is an interface with some sort of greater whole.

  8. #878
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by that's not my name View Post
    Since its my tertiary function it might work differently for me than for you INxJ types, but basically what happens to me is the sum of all my observations are subconsciously stored and analyzed and without purposefully using logic or reasoning I come to a conclusion using all the bits of information I've collected. It's almost like I don't have control over it, it just does what it does. What I can then do is think back through my day or through the relevant information I've collected to see how I got there, but I have to get there unconsciously first before I work my way back and figure out why. Note: this isn't the only or even main way I come to conclusions, but it is the way I come to my more profound and life-effecting ones.

    Can any other ISTPs relate to this?
    Quote Originally Posted by that's not my name View Post
    Since its my tertiary function it might work differently for me than for you INxJ types, but basically what happens to me is the sum of all my observations are subconsciously stored and analyzed and without purposefully using logic or reasoning I come to a conclusion using all the bits of information I've collected. It's almost like I don't have control over it, it just does what it does. What I can then do is think back through my day or through the relevant information I've collected to see how I got there, but I have to get there unconsciously first before I work my way back and figure out why. Note: this isn't the only or even main way I come to conclusions, but it is the way I come to my more profound and life-effecting ones.

    Can any other ISTPs relate to this?
    Yeah. I relate to that. I know what I know. If you ask me how I know? I don't quite know how to give you directions from where I came. Grr. Don't force me to explain right then. Let me think on it. Don't rush me there. I'll falter or get frustrated.

    I could explain but does that take large amounts of energy and time or what? Yes. It does.

    Takes slowing down to piece together all the end bits to form the circle to be able to explain it in depth. Simple is easy. Sometimes it's not worth the time or trouble to explain because to what end do I need to explain?

    I either want to or need to.

    But when I was younger, I couldn't even get this far with Ni. I couldn't tap into it at all, recognize it. I just knew it was there. This forum is a good exercise for that because it forced me to put conscious thought into what I think. Ha ha. I can't talk out of my ass!

    Well not so much anyway
    ~Live and learn from fools and from sages~




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  9. #879
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    This is interesting.

    I'm curious what is your general attitude towards Jung's descriptions of the unconscious. My read of it was that it was something that we participate in, rather than it being particular to any one of us. Or rather individual unconscious is an interface with some sort of greater whole.
    These days, I tend to read what Jung wrote with an eye to how Haidt explains things in terms of the elephant and rider, that most of the unconscious isn't so much UNconscious as it is "other-conscious", which is why it feels like someone else's thoughts, sort of. Another analogy is "articulated" vs "unarticulated" knowledge. There are the things that we can understand and write about and explain to other people with words and books and pictures and so on. And then there are the things that we can only understand via experience. For example, you can read and read and read about dancing or motorcycles, but until you actually dance, you have no idea of all the expertise that comprises dancing, and until you actually ride a motorcycle, you have no idea of all the expertise that comprises riding a motorcycle.

    I would argue that Ni types tend to naturally take advantage of this other-consciousness and even seem to live in it to a degree. I think Jung called it "the unconscious" because he couldn't get people to talk about it, to articulate it. He didn't have the methods that modern psychologists use to point at those aspects of thinking that cannot be articulated. My favorite example is his experiment of signing over one's soul to the experimenter for $2: surprisingly, a significant fraction of atheists refuse to comply, no matter how many stipulations the experimenter might agree to. It's clear that some inarticulate part of the subject strongly objects to signing over the soul, but the "conscious mind" (Haidt's "rider") cannot ultimately explain why.

    For a long time, I believed that "the unconscious" was to psychologists as "dark matter" is to physicists. It's kind of a placeholder for something they really don't understand. There is clearly something there with no good way to measure/describe it, so it ends up being a repository for a good deal of junk science. "The unconscious" can be used to explain all sorts of things without explaining anything at all. I think what I've read in Haidt (he didn't discover it - it's a synopsis of a lot of modern discoveries) clarifies what this unconscious mind really is. It doesn't lack consciousness: it lacks the ability to articulate thought (put thoughts into words).

    Jung's writings, in my opinion, suffer from the lack of this modern insight. He's stuck with "the unconscious". It's not his fault: indeed, he is to be credited with discovering it and writing down the first systematic thoughts about it. Even now, almost a century later, we see how his insights into the unconscious are still entirely valid. But they will always slightly fail in part because he was stuck at this "mysterious" conception of unconsciousness. It is possible to read and understand him within a proper modern framework, but his writings don't always translate into the modern idiom easily.

    A lot of what I've tried to do in this thread is remove this "mysterious" label on Ni in the same way modern psychologists have shined more light into what comprises the unconscious mind. That's why I like the notion of it feeling like stepping into someone else's thoughts. I think most people can identify with that concept, even if most of us only get there through dreams and the like. It lets others know what it feels like even if they don't habitually think that way.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  10. #880
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    We live inside our heads.

    We frequently zone out. We get lost in thought and spend much of our time inside our heads. If our immediate reality becomes boring, we will retreat into our minds, and you might have to shout our names repeatedly to get our attention so we will come out again. And no, sorry, but you can’t come into our heads with us. You wouldn’t last five minutes there. You’d be driven insane by the nonstop cacophony of overlapping voices madly free-associating from one idea to the next.

    ...

    Q: Why doesn’t my INTJ ever show emotions or feelings?

    A: Because he doesn’t have any. Actually, that’s not strictly true; it’s just that we tend to get emotional about things you might not appreciate. INTJs have been known to cry during the liftoff scene in “Apollo 13”, for example, and there are also many touching moments in some of the Star Trek movies. An INTJ may also smile or laugh at random for no apparent reason; probably one of the voices in his head just made a good joke.

    ...

    Q: My INTJ keeps disappearing. Is this normal?

    A: Yes. We need our “alone time” to recharge, more so than any of the other introverted MBTI types. Being around people for very long sucks the life force out of us, and we sneak off to be by ourselves whenever our “low battery” warning light starts to flash. (And in those cases where we can’t disappear physically, we will retreat into our minds.) Consequently we have great stealth capability; we can sit in a corner, observing while being unobserved, and we can escape, unnoticed, when we’re ready to move on.

    ...

    Q: Why can’t my INTJ remember anything?

    A: This is normal. Most of us INTJs are very forgetful. We have too much going on in our heads at any time to remember a lot of new stuff. Also, we zone out and go into autopilot mode quite frequently. We often won’t remember where we put our car keys because we weren’t “there” when we did it.

    ...

    Q: Why does my INTJ just “shut down” at the end of the day?

    A: Our minds are always buzzing with plans and theories, and we cannot voluntarily get it to stop. But even an Indy 500 car will coast to a halt after it runs out of gas. When we are very tired our brains slow down, and we become normal or even a bit retarded. If we start asking you to repeat what you just told us but more slowly this time, and/or if we can no longer perform simple routine tasks like computing an orbital transfer burn or finding a memory leak in 10,000 lines of C++ code, you know it’s time for us to call it a day.

    So how's that for descriptions, Mal?
    Those are all generic introversion examples.
    "If you try to build something that is idiot-proof, the universe will build a better idiot."

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