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  1. #861

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    You seem to want to Ni. You should. You should very much Ni.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.
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  2. #862
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Stolen -

    Starting at 2:24
    "You don't know, ordinarily, how introverted intuition works. So when a man has a hunch, you can't tell exactly...where that hunch comes from. It is something - funny - about intuition."
    "There seems to be a deep instinct in human beings to make compulsory that which isn't forbidden."
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  3. #863
    Senior Member nonsequitur's Avatar
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    I find it easier to think of Ni as an instinctual grasp of "perspective". Those "sudden flash of insight" thingies just make it sound mystical and God-given, when really it's not. Ni understands that truth is subjective and in relation to the total experience of the individual.

    Referencing Akira Kurosawa's Rashomon, you can have 4 vastly different stories told by 4 people about the same event. Ne/Ti would go over each of the stories looking for inconsistencies in logic and pick the "best" one. Ni would synthesise a version that fits all 4 versions together given the people involved, which allows the event to be seen from different lenses. That's why it's so hard to explain - there's no one "right" version, and we can easily shift within our own constructed "correct" version, jumping from one person's pov to the next. That's also why it's an illogical function that requires an external judging function like Te or Fe to "order" stuff so that it becomes sensible and understandable in the external world.

    I think I had a conversation before on this site with another INTJ scientist about how our grasp of concepts/situations is very visual and spatial, which makes it very hard to verbalise or contextualise for others. This impatience/frustration at being unable to readily "translate" what appears to be self-apparent to us makes us come across as being arrogant.

    When we put off decisions and "wait" for some missing information to come along, that's crucial because we sense that an important link is missing that would affect our perspective, but until it's filled in, it would be impossible to identify what it was, or why it was important. But once we've chosen and proceed to act, the entire chain/network of information that led to that decision is used to support it.

    I'm not sure if that's any clearer than the previous attempts to define it in this thread.
    "How badly did you have to break it to make it care about people so much?"
    "That didn't break it. It's what made it work."

    "Any community that gets its laughs by pretending to be idiots will eventually be flooded by actual idiots who mistakenly believe that they're in good company." - Rene Descartes

    5w6 1w9 2w1, sp/so
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  4. #864
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    For me its rolling around words. Like repetitive rambling. No real path, it just goes wherever it goes. Its conceptual, nothing sensory. Thats my external function. When i write its given better direction, but i still fine tune as i go for clarity and go back over the same thoughts for clarity.

    My sensory side is a method of pulling data in, lots of data. Would overwhelm to analyze it all to a deep degree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    You seem to want to Ni. You should. You should very much Ni.
    I find that it's really useful to look at the types who have a function as tertiary, because it helps one better understand how the function also might work in the primary. This is part and parcel of the overall observation/pseudo-theory that each type sorta-kinda has an "inner type" based on the tertiary and inferior, hence INTJs have an "inner ISFP", ESTJs have an "inner ENFP", ISTPs have an "inner INFJ" and so on. When you see how the functions work in tertiary, their "inexpert" application helps to really define what characterizes that particular cognitive pattern of thought.

    Why? Because it's much easier to spot types in terms of what they tend to do wrong, not what they tend to do right. So you're going to understand Fi, perhaps, a little better when you see how IxTJs use and describe it. Not that they use/describe it aptly, but that's the point. You end up seeing the process more easily, because it isn't nearly so adept as coping as when it is dominant. A dominant process generally copes very well, and having adapted to the real world, it is often difficult to distinguish because the person using it has learned to translate/communicate well.

    Here's a personal example of mine, from back in the old days (has it really been that long?!): Uumlau answers your questions about Fi

    That's Fi as I understood it back then. @PeaceBaby has helped me refine my understanding of Fi, even as I've helped her refine her understanding of Ni. But as a broad brush, especially for other TJs, it's a good start for understanding what is/isn't Fi, even if it's kind of inept on my part.

    So I find it fascinating watching @Poki describe Ni. I don't think he's wrong about it - in fact I think he helps extend my understanding of it. This is beautiful and aptly put: "For me its rolling around words. Like repetitive rambling. No real path, it just goes wherever it goes. Its conceptual, nothing sensory." I know exactly what he's talking about, but he's saying it differently than I would, because it's not his dominant process. With Ti being dominant, he sees a different part of it than I do. He sees how it has no path, how it's like watching your thoughts without actively participating. Now imagine if "watching your thoughts without actively participating" were your primary mode of thinking. That's more or less how Ni feels, and being from an ISTP, a fellow Ti dom, this might be the most apt description for @Mal12345, describing Ni in terms of Ti.

    And here is another personal example. I remember one time I was listening to a speaker describe her experiences with meditation, how it felt, what was difficult, what was easy, and how it should work. What she described as "meditation" was exactly how I always think. Her description was very much like Poki's description of Ni, watching your thoughts without participating. But what puzzled me was how she indicated that it was so difficult to achieve, that she'd get distracted or fall asleep or whatever. But Ni types don't fall asleep or get distracted - or rather, we don't consider it to be "sleep" or "distraction", but we're definitely not directing, not in control.

    The Compleat Idiot’s Guide to the INTJ | INTJ Central

    This has a great description of how INTJs think:

    We live inside our heads.

    We frequently zone out. We get lost in thought and spend much of our time inside our heads. If our immediate reality becomes boring, we will retreat into our minds, and you might have to shout our names repeatedly to get our attention so we will come out again. And no, sorry, but you can’t come into our heads with us. You wouldn’t last five minutes there. You’d be driven insane by the nonstop cacophony of overlapping voices madly free-associating from one idea to the next.

    ...

    Q: Why doesn’t my INTJ ever show emotions or feelings?

    A: Because he doesn’t have any. Actually, that’s not strictly true; it’s just that we tend to get emotional about things you might not appreciate. INTJs have been known to cry during the liftoff scene in “Apollo 13”, for example, and there are also many touching moments in some of the Star Trek movies. An INTJ may also smile or laugh at random for no apparent reason; probably one of the voices in his head just made a good joke.

    ...

    Q: My INTJ keeps disappearing. Is this normal?

    A: Yes. We need our “alone time” to recharge, more so than any of the other introverted MBTI types. Being around people for very long sucks the life force out of us, and we sneak off to be by ourselves whenever our “low battery” warning light starts to flash. (And in those cases where we can’t disappear physically, we will retreat into our minds.) Consequently we have great stealth capability; we can sit in a corner, observing while being unobserved, and we can escape, unnoticed, when we’re ready to move on.

    ...

    Q: Why can’t my INTJ remember anything?

    A: This is normal. Most of us INTJs are very forgetful. We have too much going on in our heads at any time to remember a lot of new stuff. Also, we zone out and go into autopilot mode quite frequently. We often won’t remember where we put our car keys because we weren’t “there” when we did it.

    ...

    Q: Why does my INTJ just “shut down” at the end of the day?

    A: Our minds are always buzzing with plans and theories, and we cannot voluntarily get it to stop. But even an Indy 500 car will coast to a halt after it runs out of gas. When we are very tired our brains slow down, and we become normal or even a bit retarded. If we start asking you to repeat what you just told us but more slowly this time, and/or if we can no longer perform simple routine tasks like computing an orbital transfer burn or finding a memory leak in 10,000 lines of C++ code, you know it’s time for us to call it a day.
    Seriously, a lot of the time what we do isn't "thinking", it's more like "watching movies" of what-if scenarios. When we turn our minds to the real world, those what-if scenarios play out pretty quickly and result in problem-solving. The rest of the time, it's aimed at trivia such as, "Why don't I have a girlfriend yet?" This is where Ni with Fi quickly becomes very stupid.

    So how's that for descriptions, Mal?
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  5. #865
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    "Why don't I have a girlfriend yet?" This is where Ni with Fi quickly becomes very stupid.

    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #866
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    So I find it fascinating watching @Poki describe Ni. I don't think he's wrong about it - in fact I think he helps extend my understanding of it. This is beautiful and aptly put: "For me its rolling around words. Like repetitive rambling. No real path, it just goes wherever it goes. Its conceptual, nothing sensory." I know exactly what he's talking about, but he's saying it differently than I would, because it's not his dominant process. With Ti being dominant, he sees a different part of it than I do. He sees how it has no path, how it's like watching your thoughts without actively participating. Now imagine if "watching your thoughts without actively participating" were your primary mode of thinking. That's more or less how Ni feels, and being from an ISTP, a fellow Ti dom, this might be the most apt description for @Mal12345, describing Ni in terms of Ti.
    I'm not sure why I was quoted in this. I was ribbing @Poki a bit, but didn't feel his descriptions to be invalid.

    Regarding how well one can really understand one's tertiary function, I've always felt like my understanding of Se was pretty superficial, and strongly colored by the lens of Ni. I think there's an element of glamor around the tertiary for all types. Unlike the inferior which carries an element of threat in it, the tertiary is elusive enough to feel "other", but sufficiently in reach to know it's somewhere fun you can visit essentially at will. The tertiary is the function of "I'm not who you think I am."

    In some definitions of the word, glamour is as much about excitement as it is deception. Our ease and familiarity with our tertiary can be as illusory as our demonization of the inferior. Listening to someone talk about their inferior is more interesting to me because any insight at all will be harder won. There's no real impetus to grow in the tertiary because there's no conflict there. As a Te-dom, listening to some EFP talk about their "Te Bitchslap" is like listening to the made for TV version of extraverted thinking. Yeah, there's some element of truth there, but that kernel is usually buried under so much over the top, Rambo-ish hyperbole that I think that it would take a Te-dom to pluck out what was real in it. To that extent, yeah, it can be oddly illuminating to hear what people of you in such an unfiltered way, but it always felt like a version of the truth to me.

    And that gets to the point that you're making in your post. Is "watching your thoughts without actively participating" really all introverted intuition is for you? Does that description really draw someone into that moment of what you're doing? Or is that a limited, external view of what I know personally to be a much more robust process.

    I thought that meditation example was one you could expand on, because at a very real level that's also my experience of introverted intuition. I've had moments where I let my mind go quiet and it's like...stepping into a stream of thoughts that's not mine. The thoughts come together in a way that I feel and see, but if I try to put it into words I will no longer see what's unfolding. I can feel that if I move this way or that way in the stream the whole understanding is going to change. I move around in the stream until it feels right in my body, and I know anything else is impossible. Then comes the nasty process of trying to put that into words. I'm trying to say something that I feel everywhere. And the best I can come up with is just one line that encapsulates what I've experienced on the most literal level, but leaves so much out.

    If that's what I experience with Ni as an auxiliary function, I know that there's gotta be levels on that when it's the dominant.

  7. #867
    Active Member Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    That's a narcistic question...INTJ has a huge Narcisism side...*cough*...I mean intuition side
    Take what I say with a grain of salt, because that's all it is compared to the ocean of complexity when it comes to actions and real life.

  8. #868
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    If that's what I experience with Ni as an auxiliary function, I know that there's gotta be levels on that when it's the dominant.

    Well, to use your "stepping into a stream of thoughts" analogy ...

    Ni dom = "diving into a stream of thoughts"
    Ni aux = "wading into a stream of thoughts"
    Ni tert = "stepping into a stream of thoughts"
    Ni inferior = "sticking your tow into a stream of thoughts and pulling it right out because it's too cold"


    The thing is, as I mention in other threads about feeling and Fi for Te types, Te tends to push away those feelings and ignore them, but the truth is, those feelings are not only really your feelings, they're really you, just as much "you" as your thinking side.

    That stream of thoughts you're stepping into really ARE your thoughts, that really is you thinking. It only feels alien because a lot of the thoughts in there are things that you will never, ever say. Your conscious mind edits those thoughts. But that doesn't stop you from thinking them.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #869
    Active Member Poki's Avatar
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    From Beebe

    HERO (dominant)
    Ni (INxJ): Life must be "filled in" by my individual [subconscious] impressions

    GOOD PARENT (auxiliary)
    Te (IxTJ): Directing others to efficiently organize the environment
    Fe (IxFJ): Instructing others on group ethics or values

    PUER/PUELLA ("eternal child", tertiary)
    Ti (IxFJ): Childlike exploration of logical frameworks
    Fi (IxTJ): Find relief through internal harmony; personally relating to situations represents innocence
    ANIMA (inferior, aspirational)

    INxJ's might feel inferior with current practical, tangible experience.

    How we project it onto others:
    INxJ's Cling to dominant perspective. Criticize SP's as reckless
    I imagine this might come out in the emotional images that surface when we think of a beautiful romantic day:
    INxJ's enjoying rigorous tangible experience together, and extracting meaning from it.

    OPPOSING PERSONALITY COMPLEX
    What it is about, and which functional perspective it encases:
    INxJ's Feel obstructed in or become stubborn about emergent meanings and hypothetical possibilities

    How we project it onto others:
    INxJ's Probably think that multiple possibilities are absurd. The patterns point to one right conclusion.


    WITCH/SENEX ("critical parent")
    IxTJ's Feel negated in or become disgruntled about variable logical principles
    IxFJ's Feel negated in or become disgruntled about personal ethics


    IxTJ's Will often angrily hit others with logical "truth" or principles:
    •I'M the authority on logical order. You are being totally illogical! [I subconsciously know my logic is not very deep with my external focus, and I project this onto you]
    IxFJ's Can angrily hit others with individual personal or universal ethical "truth":
    •I'M the authority on ethics! Your behavior shows a lack of personal integrity. [I feel I'm not living up to the personal (internal) side of ethics with my external focus, and I project it onto you].
    TRICKSTER (bad child, clown)
    IxTJ's Might feel 'double-bound' by aspects of social values, and use them to trap others into behaving or conforming
    IxFJ's Might feel 'double-bound' by external logical order, and make mistakes trying to implement it themselves

    IxTJ's might criticize others' social behavior to scare them by saying they are bringing rejection on themselves:
    •HA! Got you! You're trying to bind me with social rules [I feel bound by social rules and project it onto you], so I'll bind you with agreed upon (conventional) social etiquette
    IxFJ's see people organizing the environment logically as "bad children":
    •HA! Got you! You're trying to bind me [I feel confused by externally set technical order and make mistakes with it, and project it onto you] so I'm going to bind you with technical order.
    DEMONIC PERSONALITY COMPLEX
    INxJ's The past is highly irrelevant, and likely haunting
    Take what I say with a grain of salt, because that's all it is compared to the ocean of complexity when it comes to actions and real life.
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  10. #870
    Active Member Poki's Avatar
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    And sense we delved into my perception of Ni. From Beebe as well

    HERO (dominant)
    Ti (IxTP): Life must make technical sense ["correct"] to my individual understanding
    GOOD PARENT (auxiliary)
    Se (ISxP): Aiding others in practical experiences
    PUER/PUELLA ("eternal child", tertiary)
    Ni (ISxP): childlike exploring of underlying significances
    ANIMA (inferior, aspirational)
    IxTP's might feel inferior in humane (personal, "soulish") matters (including one's standing in social groups).
    And since I have my type on here as eSTP

    HERO (dominant)
    Se (ESxP): The environment must be scanned for tangible or practical experiences

    GOOD PARENT (auxiliary)
    Ti (ExTP): Teaching others according to logical truth

    PUER/PUELLA ("eternal child", tertiary)
    Fe (ExTP): childlike when connecting with others

    ANIMA (inferior, aspirational)
    Ni (ESxP) might feel inferior (spaced out) by hypothetical frameworks from the unconscious, such as archetypes and symbolism.
    Take what I say with a grain of salt, because that's all it is compared to the ocean of complexity when it comes to actions and real life.

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