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[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Ni - What the hell is it?

highlander

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Okay look, here's the way it works: the answers have already been given. Did anyone notice that? If you did, you're Ni. If you didn't, Ni's pretentious.

I think Ni wins as the most unpopular function. People are afraid of what they don't understand.
 

InvisibleJim

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Ni is not synonymous with narcissistic asshole, no matter how much you guys are trying to argue that point. :coffee:

Ni does not exclude narcissism.

I think Ni wins as the most unpopular function. People are afraid of what they don't understand.

I think Se is less popular. Almost everyone who I have met who has it in abundance tries to pretend they are a different type. Usually ENFP or ENTP.
 

Eric B

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There's an interesting corollary in this thread between Ni / Ne and Fi / Fe. Ne here is the function that can tend to presume "but I know about intuition; I do that" and Ni the one to say, "No, you just don't get it."

So since I feel like Fe doesn't get Fi, I accept that Ne doesn't really get Ni either. But it's a fascinating exploration nonetheless.
Both of these seem to be the hardest to understand and explain and differentiate from their extraverted counterparts.
 

Kalach

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Or, to put it another way, combine an extroverted judging function which represents a formal ordering of the outside world, with a function that ends up determining the meaning of that order and how do you not end up with premonition?

Extroverted judging is little more than an assignment of ticks and crosses to statements about the external world. Statements are marked "Yes, that matches what's out there" or "No, that doesn't match." As far as pure extroverted judgment is concerned, no statement has any subjective content. The entire project is one of matching combination of words to an external standard.

The process of extroverted judging does not, and formally can not, provide a semantic relationship between claims. Other than "it just happens that way", there is little to say about such curiosities as, say, statement X about the outside world matches the outside world only when statement Y about the outside world matches the outside world. The question of whether or not the relationship between statements X and Y is anything other than purely formal is, in an NJ at least, the province of introverted perception.

Introverted perception is an arrangement of content relationships. The entities of introverted perception get mapped to outside world statements, and the content relationships then provide substance for the formal connections found between given groups of outside world statements. (And for individuals either the outside world takes precedence in what those substance relationships are, or the inner world does--it depends on the person's current leaning toward either the e or the i.)

Now introverted intuition in particular is a landscape of "the real meanings of". Name a thing (or experience it) and introverted intuition will have or generate the "real" meaning of what happened. How? By already being a landscape. A network of connected content. The connections are the products of speculation that doesn't happen in the moment, but does happen fairly constantly at all other times, building and breaking connections in a moderately constant search for better, bigger connections.


So, toss up some situation, something determinate in the real world, and how does introverted perception NOT suddenly tell you what will happen next? The objective situation is there, the connections are there, what's not to see? This whole topic is mostly just to let Ni people know they could still be wrong? Pffft.





(The test for Ni isn't "could". Such "could"s as could be gone over have all been gone over and over. The test is "are". A demonstration. Something to be seen in the world to rectify the corrupt coulds. Something for Se to se-. Meh, but I suppose discussion is okay too.)



/thesis
/hubris
/booyah
 

cascadeco

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I think this is the quintessential Ni Te characteristic. Ni sees the future, as though it was linear and vertical, while Te is poised for any external contingency. Te also seems to be applied to hard, fast, and broad rules, whereas Ti is much more particular in its sequencing. Once Ti grasps the essence of a theory, it can sequence the next appropriate step through a priori analysis.

This makes me exceptionally curious about how INFJs experience premonitions.

I don't tend to view myself as having 'premonitions' or anything that is a voodoo-like process.

But, I do know that I am rarely caught off guard or surprised, simply because my everyday approach to pretty much everything is to 'compute' or come up with pretty much every conceivable scenario/outcome of everything. [Yes, I just used a lot of 'every-' in that sentence ;)] So whether that be a situation at work and how that might unfold, whether it's a logistical thing involving travel/transportation, whether it's a specific relationship/interaction with a close friend, a conversation I'm about to have, the election of a president or some other large scale world event....I'll have already thought of the various possibilites of how it will unfold, so that I'm prepared and can adjust according to whichever scenario does unfold. However that only covers the 'I'm not surprised' element - I'll also already have a pretty good idea of which one will in fact unfold - I'll say I have an inner 'probability' radar. So while I might be somewhat surprised that a low-probability thing happened, it was still one of the contingencies so it wasn't totally out of the realm of possibility in the first place. But I think what I do (and perhaps other Ni doms do as well, although I hate speaking for all) as my natural mode of being is always try to pin down THE possibility that will happen. Which one is true, which one is IT? That definitive thing that removes all other possibilities. What WILL the person do? What will happen at work today? How will the meeting go down? If I say this I know this might happen but I say it this other way then I might be able to shift things such that this other thing might have a better possibility of happening instead. Etc. And the better you know your subject - whether it be a large-scale thing, or whether it be an individuals' personality quirks and behaviors and nuances, or whether it's human nature/psychology in general - the better able you'll be to predict what WILL happen or what they WILL do. Which is why you need to go external - you need that actual info to finetune things and better ascertain the probabilities.
 

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Personally, I am not interested in taking anything magical away from an Ni dom. I feel the same about my Fi, so why would I want to diminish the experiences of anyone's dominant function?

I've noted on the forum though that the INFJ's tend to distance themselves from casting Ni as this "god-like all-seeing all-knowing" function more-so than my INTJ buds.

Makes me wonder if the tripping point here trying to explain Ni is tertiary Fi (or inferior Fi use) ... putting someone down in order to build oneself up ... to explain Ni is it necessary to assume a "holier than thou" position or get so immediately frustrated with those who need more information to try to grasp it?

That's why I personally would like more Ni stories, or even Ni metaphors - they help me understand more clearly. Plus, they help me see that I have had some Ni moments in my life, even though my first, best and strongest problem-solving reaction is to pull out Ne with Fi as the impetus, the driving force.
 

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But, I do know that I am rarely caught off guard or surprised, simply because my everyday approach to pretty much everything is to 'compute' or come up with pretty much every conceivable scenario/outcome of everything.

For me, Si is the vantage point to look from the past and try to come up with every possible scenario of how things could go wrong, not just my personal past, but from history itself, right up to stories and experiences from other people in my present life. (In fact, I consider Si my most likely tripping point in the present. Every situation is unique and therefore will not necessarily unfold as the past did. But I digress.)

I used to feel comfortable living with probability on my side, until some very improbable events occurred to me that made me keenly aware I was not exempt from negative outcomes, no matter how unlikely their occurrence might be.

Does Ni give you comfort? Does it make you feel safer, when planning your life or looking at the future? For example, you say you're not surprised when the improbable occurs, but does it shake your faith in your ability to accurately anticipate the future nonetheless? There are things one can control and things one cannot; does Ni help you focus more on the things that you DO have control over?
 

uumlau

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Ni does not exclude narcissism.
Nor does Ni indicate intelligence. (A general statement, not a veiled insult directed at anyone!) Ni is just a means of perceiving. It has some great strengths and some remarkable weaknesses.

I think Se is less popular. Almost everyone who I have met who has it in abundance tries to pretend they are a different type. Usually ENFP or ENTP.
Yeah, and even then Ni has some degree of popularity, given the number of people who will self identify as INTJs instead of INTP or ENTP or ISTP.

With respect to Se, I understand its lack of popularity, because it sounds like a "stupid" attitude. However, living "in the moment" is a very enlightened way of life, so long as it isn't accompanied by crass immaturity. People with strong Se tend to think that what they do must be intuitive, because so much of sensing is "concrete" and often described in such a way that it describes Si more than Se.

Se has its own "intuition," and I don't mean the Ni variety that appears in developed ISxPs. Se "just knows" the right thing to do in a given moment. If accompanied by a well-developed introverted function (Ti or Fi), it can quickly analyze a situation "in the moment" and come up with a reaction or judgment that is eminently apropos.

In fact, Se works quite well with Ni, when both are developed. Se provides the "real time" information, and Ni can further perceive and evaluate it with refinement. This serves to counteract Se's primary weakness which is shortsightedness: Se tends not to gather information that isn't immediately within reach, and that results in a tendency to make great short term decisions, but fairly mediocre long-term decisions. Ti, Fi and Ni modulate Se to embody a more long-term perspective.


Now introverted intuition in particular is a landscape of "the real meanings of". Name a thing (or experience it) and introverted intuition will have or generate the "real" meaning of what happened. How? By already being a landscape. A network of connected content. The connections are the products of speculation that doesn't happen in the moment, but does happen fairly constantly at all other times, building and breaking connections in a moderately constant search for better, bigger connections.

So, toss up some situation, something determinate in the real world, and how does introverted perception NOT suddenly tell you what will happen next? The objective situation is there, the connections are there, what's not to see?

A very good post, overall, Kalach!

I've selected particular pieces to highlight them, and bolded parts of these to further draw attention to what Ni is really doing.

The bolded is how Ni and Se relate. Ni maintains an internal landscape, as K calls it. I would call it an internal dynamic model: for me Ni really is a "function"! Se (or Te or Fe) provides input, and out pops the answer.

I would describe Ni as providing a "result" based on "Ni(Se,Te,Fe)", where Ni is the "function" and you just plug in the extroverted function "variables." Thus Ni "tells you" what is going on, and that information is consequentially predictive, because Ni is a dynamic model. By virtue of knowing "what is really happening," we also predict "what will happen," with a remarkable degree of accuracy.

I should use this observation to point out a weakness of Ni: it depends on the input values, and it isn't obvious where the input values come from. E.g., it's possible to have just Ni(null, Te, null), or Ni(null, null, Fe) or Ni(Se, null, null). Or worse: Ni(null, null, null). Or nearly as bizarre: Ni(Ti) or Ni(Fi).

Ni needs to build its landscape/model, and that model is necessarily built in terms of the Ni user's other functions. If those other functions are weak, or nearly non-existent, Ni can come up with some really crack-brained ideas. The more developed the other functions are, the more apt Ni is at spotting "what is really going on." The more Ni "sees" (or would that be "Se's"?), the more accurate its predictions. In the case of the extroverted judging functions, each tends to blind Ni to its opposite, so that Ni only sees the Te connections or the Fe connections, but not both, thus limiting its reliability.
 

Kalach

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For me, Si is the vantage point to look from the past and try to come up with every possible scenario of how things could go wrong, not just my personal past, but from history itself, right up to stories and experiences from other people in my present life.

Well, la-di-dah!.



But to be clear, The Past, the essence of historical foundation, is NOT SOMETHING EVERY PERSON CAN ACCESS! There are people who don't conserve and treasure the past. There are people who positively do not maintain memory and haven't sifted through the record of human content to select, discover and develop the meaningful content there. And the honest substance of the human condition isn't that clear to them.

So, be careful about claiming to see The Past. People might think you're putting on airs.



And the INFJs are being polite. Since their vision deals directly with (chosen) people, their future gazing partakes less of the tangible and mechanistic and more of the intangible but substantial condition of the human.

Or not. Who knows what the Jedi really think?
 

uumlau

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I don't tend to view myself as having 'premonitions' or anything that is a voodoo-like process.

...

Which is why you need to go external - you need that actual info to finetune things and better ascertain the probabilities.

Exactly. Ni is just "a way of looking at" the input data, which needs to be external (extroverted). Ni can work with other introverted functions, but it tends to result in "thumbsucking" insights unless those other introverted functions are strongly developed.

Personally, I am not interested in taking anything magical away from an Ni dom. I feel the same about my Fi, so why would I want to diminish the experiences of anyone's dominant function?
So you could feel superior, of course! :devil:

I've noted on the forum though that the INFJ's tend to distance themselves from casting Ni as this "god-like all-seeing all-knowing" function more-so than my INTJ buds.

Makes me wonder if the tripping point here trying to explain Ni is tertiary Fi (or inferior Fi use) ... putting someone down in order to build oneself up ... to explain Ni is it necessary to assume a "holier than thou" position or get so immediately frustrated with those who need more information to try to grasp it?

I think you're misreading the Te "arrogance" vs the Fe "modesty." I've known plenty of INFJs to promote the mystical "just knowing" nature of Ni, some of whom think they're INTJs, so they're a special case of Ni/Ti emphasis.

I would say that the more "disconnected" Ni is from the other functions, especially the extroverted ones, the more it seems "mystical," especially to oneself.

That's why I personally would like more Ni stories, or even Ni metaphors - they help me understand more clearly. Plus, they help me see that I have had some Ni moments in my life, even though my first, best and strongest problem-solving reaction is to pull out Ne with Fi as the impetus, the driving force.

This is entirely within the scope of what I discussed before: Ne dom/aux use Ni a lot, because a large part of intuition is simply considering alternate possibilities. Ne looks for alternate external possibilities, while Ni focuses on alternate internal possibilities (which reduces to alternate perspectives/contexts). Ne doms simply go in the Ne-direction first, using Ni as backup. The reverse is true for Ni doms.

For me, Si is the vantage point to look from the past and try to come up with every possible scenario of how things could go wrong, not just my personal past, but from history itself, right up to stories and experiences from other people in my present life. (In fact, I consider Si my most likely tripping point in the present. Every situation is unique and therefore will not necessarily unfold as the past did. But I digress.)

I used to feel comfortable living with probability on my side, until some very improbable events occurred to me that made me keenly aware I was not exempt from negative outcomes, no matter how unlikely their occurrence might be.

Does Ni give you comfort? Does it make you feel safer, when planning your life or looking at the future? For example, you say you're not surprised when the improbable occurs, but does it shake your faith in your ability to accurately anticipate the future nonetheless? There are things one can control and things one cannot; does Ni help you focus more on the things that you DO have control over?

Ni doesn't give comfort, except insofar as it is abused. Ni can "comfort" oneself by adopting a perspective that casts things in a favorable light, instead of a true light. Alternatively, Ni can go completely paranoid cuckoo if one becomes entranced by its darker predictions. Personally, I feel agitated with a pending situation until it is resolved or I can figure it out to the point that it's resolved in my head. Ni doesn't help resolve it: the other extroverted functions help resolve it by providing enough information to narrow the scope of possibilities to something manageable, that in turn allows an effective decision to be made. E.g., it doesn't help if I can predict something, even with uncanny accuracy, if I really can't make a decision based on that knowledge. For some things, we have to WAIT until they happen before making a decision, so we feel anxious until that point. In the meantime, however, we will have decided quite clearly what we will do, when it's time.
 

cascadeco

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I've known plenty of INFJs to promote the mystical "just knowing" nature of Ni, some of whom think they're INTJs, so they're a special case of Ni/Ti emphasis.

Really? I disagree; I think the INFJ's who promote the mystical are locked more into just Ni and actually lack Ti or much Fe/Se for that matter. To me the Ti adds an element of detached self critique.


I would say that the more "disconnected" Ni is from the other functions, especially the extroverted ones, the more it seems "mystical," especially to oneself.

I do agree with this.

Ni doesn't give comfort, except insofar as it is abused. Ni can "comfort" oneself by adopting a perspective that casts things in a favorable light, instead of a true light. Alternatively, Ni can go completely paranoid cuckoo if one becomes entranced by its darker predictions. Personally, I feel agitated with a pending situation until it is resolved or I can figure it out to the point that it's resolved in my head. Ni doesn't help resolve it: the other extroverted functions help resolve it by providing enough information to narrow the scope of possibilities to something manageable, that in turn allows an effective decision to be made. E.g., it doesn't help if I can predict something, even with uncanny accuracy, if I really can't make a decision based on that knowledge. For some things, we have to WAIT until they happen before making a decision, so we feel anxious until that point. In the meantime, however, we will have decided quite clearly what we will do, when it's time.

Totally, to the bolded. I am extremely agitated until I've resolved whatever it is in my head and made sense of everything. Reached a decision point/conclusion. But until I reach that internal resolution and clarity, I'm quite restless.
 

PeaceBaby

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Well, la-di-dah!.

But to be clear, The Past, the essence of historical foundation, is NOT SOMETHING EVERY PERSON CAN ACCESS! There are people who don't conserve and treasure the past. There are people who positively do not maintain memory and haven't sifted through the record of human content to select, discover and develop the meaningful content there. And the honest substance of the human condition isn't that clear to them.

So, be careful about claiming to see The Past. People might think you're putting on airs.

LOL, Kalach, your post made me laugh! :) No, no - I sure don't claim to know everything about "The Past" ... I didn't capitalize those words, you did :p. I agree that Si is limited by how much actual data is in the computer at any given point in time, and no one can claim to possess that sum total of wisdom. I only wanted to illustrate that Si for me is not just about what one sees in oneself, or one's own life journey. It can use experiential data from other sources, external to oneself, from the distant past right up until real-time.

And the INFJs are being polite.

Ah, thanks for clarifying!

-----

So you could feel superior, of course! :devil:

Hmm, I hadn't thought of that interpretation, I was thinking of us all MOL on a level playing field.

Even in sports, each team needs players with a variety of strengths, after all. Some roles are just more glory-oriented. ;)

I think you're misreading the Te "arrogance" vs the Fe "modesty."

Perhaps ... :devil:

I would say that the more "disconnected" Ni is from the other functions, especially the extroverted ones, the more it seems "mystical," especially to oneself.

Interesting; thanks for that.

Ni doesn't give comfort, except insofar as it is abused. Ni can "comfort" oneself by adopting a perspective that casts things in a favorable light, instead of a true light. Alternatively, Ni can go completely paranoid cuckoo if one becomes entranced by its darker predictions. Personally, I feel agitated with a pending situation until it is resolved or I can figure it out to the point that it's resolved in my head. Ni doesn't help resolve it: the other extroverted functions help resolve it by providing enough information to narrow the scope of possibilities to something manageable, that in turn allows an effective decision to be made. E.g., it doesn't help if I can predict something, even with uncanny accuracy, if I really can't make a decision based on that knowledge. For some things, we have to WAIT until they happen before making a decision, so we feel anxious until that point. In the meantime, however, we will have decided quite clearly what we will do, when it's time.

Thanks for all that too ... the waiting time feels so challenging as you describe it. :hug:

It sounds like being pregnant, and there's that place where time stands still, waiting ... nothing comes next until that baby is born and life is changed forever and keeps moving forward again.
 

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if i can speak as an annoyed Ne/Fi for a minute -

so we're trying to understand a function that is not our territory. naturally, we are in a place of submission here. those of us who still seem not to get it may have already been given the answers, but perhaps not in a language that we can understand. it's like Ni doms are explaining something in mandarin chinese to an american kid and chiding and mocking him for not getting it, and for being upset with them. that's why it's so frustrating, and that's probably why most Ne/Fi users are getting pissed off and complaining about Ni arrogance. i might not have a great grasp of Ni, but i suspect i'd be able to at least begin to understand it if someone made an effort to bridge the gap and not speak in koans. but if people keep speaking chinese, then no, i'm not going to get it. uumlau's examples have been helpful, as has kalach's description including extraverted judging, once it got past being insulting. maybe it seems banal and frustrating, but Ne needs lots of information to go off of. if you can describe how Ni "feels", that's helpful too.

i get what you're saying with addressing koans is Ni, but i don't want to just engage Ni, i want to understand what it is on a conceptual level. i know i use it IRL occasionally - i understand it experientially - but i don't really get it. i'd like to know how to go about engaging it, too, because currently a lot of the statements that are pleasing to Ni doms are making me roll my eyes and label them "not enough info" to be of use to me. once i get a better grip on what Ni is, then i can try understanding things from the Ni perspective too, but starting there is really confusing, especially because i'm not sure i totally grasp when i slide from Ne+Fi into Ni.

my point being, i think that if Ni dom/auxs can attempt to explain Ni in depth as a process or at least give a list of characteristics or images or some kind of tangible external information, it'd be very helpful, and the perception of arrogance and Ne complaints would probably go away. sorry kalach, but to some extent, i don't know how to pull my head out of the extraverted toolbox. when we're discussing people feelings, sure, but not when we're talking conceptually. i have Ne and Te as primary processes. my intellectual world is extraverted. trying to understand Ni is trying to get away from that, but i don't know what the other tools are, much less how to use them.

:shrug:
 

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LOL, Kalach, your post made me laugh! :) No, no - I sure don't claim to know everything about "The Past" ... I didn't capitalize those words, you did :p. I agree that Si is limited by how much actual data is in the computer at any given point in time, and no one can claim to possess that sum total of wisdom. I only wanted to illustrate that Si for me is not just about what one sees in oneself, or one's own life journey. It can use experiential data from other sources, external to oneself, from the distant past right up until real-time.

And you're not seeing how Ni can access future data in just the same way? You didn't experience the past, but it's accessible by--I guess--incorporation of adequately descriptive, thus relatable records from others into your own record. And I see the future by (in part) synthesizing it from similarly constructed visions. If the thing I'm used to processing is future vision, then just lying around all over the place mostly unnoticed by people who don't go look for such things, there's a huge amount of stuff out there that works as resource for adequate, accurate, dynamic speculation. Novels, news reports, movies, stories with epic, mythic themes... and at a pinch, actual life experience works too. It all becomes streams and facets within the...

within...


the......





*whispers*

...the Meta....
 

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And you're not seeing how Ni can access future data in just the same way?

When you put it that way, yes, I can relate to that. Thanks.

You didn't experience the past, but it's accessible by--I guess--incorporation of adequately descriptive, thus relatable records from others into your own record. And I see the future by (in part) synthesizing it from similarly constructed visions. If the thing I'm used to processing is future vision, then just lying around all over the place mostly unnoticed by people who don't go look for such things, there's a huge amount of stuff out there that works as resource for adequate, accurate, dynamic speculation. Novels, news reports, movies, stories with epic, mythic themes... and at a pinch, actual life experience works too.

I want to know your visions ... tell me your visions. :)
 

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The more people try and make Ni seem all mystical, the more I think it's really lame and they're just trying to hide their unexceptional thought process behind some shroud of mystery.

I don't tend to view myself as having 'premonitions' or anything that is a voodoo-like process.

I think it seems mystical because the function is very much on the unconscious side of the spectrum. You can't call upon it at will. It seems mysterious because you can't really control it and you have little transparency as to how it actually works.

I often feel like I have "premonitions" or predictions of something that will happen in the future. I get a sudden insight out of nowhere. I feel sure of it. I have no control of it at all. Maybe it's not Ni. Maybe I'm crazy :). Honestly, I just think it's the way my brain works. It's like when I was a programmer - I'd be working on something, plodding through it, and the answer would just pop up out of nowhere - "how about if we try this". It has always been one of my primary methods of solving problems.

That's why I personally would like more Ni stories, or even Ni metaphors - they help me understand more clearly. Plus, they help me see that I have had some Ni moments in my life, even though my first, best and strongest problem-solving reaction is to pull out Ne with Fi as the impetus, the driving force.

Generally, the way I experience this is that 1) There is some immediate external stimuli (Se) and this thing comes to me or 2) This insight pops into my head with no immediate stimuli at all - usually when I'm alone and thinking.

I think everybody experiences all the functions. Some are just preferred far more than others.

I think Se is less popular. Almost everyone who I have met who has it in abundance tries to pretend they are a different type. Usually ENFP or ENTP.

This may be more true on the Internet that it is true IRL. This forum is particularly Ni friendly as far as spaces in the world go.

Ni doesn't give comfort, except insofar as it is abused. Ni can "comfort" oneself by adopting a perspective that casts things in a favorable light, instead of a true light. Alternatively, Ni can go completely paranoid cuckoo if one becomes entranced by its darker predictions. Personally, I feel agitated with a pending situation until it is resolved or I can figure it out to the point that it's resolved in my head. Ni doesn't help resolve it: the other extroverted functions help resolve it by providing enough information to narrow the scope of possibilities to something manageable, that in turn allows an effective decision to be made. E.g., it doesn't help if I can predict something, even with uncanny accuracy, if I really can't make a decision based on that knowledge. For some things, we have to WAIT until they happen before making a decision, so we feel anxious until that point. In the meantime, however, we will have decided quite clearly what we will do, when it's time.

I very much agree with these things except I do think it's useful to be able to take a perspective that allows one to turn lemons into lemonade. That is, you can take a shitty situation, turn it on its head and see the good things about it and move forward. It helps you to be more resilient.
 

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if i can speak as an annoyed Ne/Fi for a minute -

so we're trying to understand a function that is not our territory. naturally, we are in a place of submission here. those of us who still seem not to get it may have already been given the answers, but perhaps not in a language that we can understand. it's like Ni doms are explaining something in mandarin chinese to an american kid and chiding and mocking him for not getting it, and for being upset with them. that's why it's so frustrating, and that's probably why most Ne/Fi users are getting pissed off and complaining about Ni arrogance. i might not have a great grasp of Ni, but i suspect i'd be able to at least begin to understand it if someone made an effort to bridge the gap and not speak in koans. but if people keep speaking chinese, then no, i'm not going to get it. uumlau's examples have been helpful, as has kalach's description including extraverted judging, once it got past being insulting. maybe it seems banal and frustrating, but Ne needs lots of information to go off of. if you can describe how Ni "feels", that's helpful too.

i get what you're saying with addressing koans is Ni, but i don't want to just engage Ni, i want to understand what it is on a conceptual level. i know i use it IRL occasionally - i understand it experientially - but i don't really get it. i'd like to know how to go about engaging it, too, because currently a lot of the statements that are pleasing to Ni doms are making me roll my eyes and label them "not enough info" to be of use to me. once i get a better grip on what Ni is, then i can try understanding things from the Ni perspective too, but starting there is really confusing, especially because i'm not sure i totally grasp when i slide from Ne+Fi into Ni.

my point being, i think that if Ni dom/auxs can attempt to explain Ni in depth as a process or at least give a list of characteristics or images or some kind of tangible external information, it'd be very helpful, and the perception of arrogance and Ne complaints would probably go away. sorry kalach, but to some extent, i don't know how to pull my head out of the extraverted toolbox. when we're discussing people feelings, sure, but not when we're talking conceptually. i have Ne and Te as primary processes. my intellectual world is extraverted. trying to understand Ni is trying to get away from that, but i don't know what the other tools are, much less how to use them.

:shrug:

Reading this made me re-read my post, as if I were an outsider, and I realized that in essence my post didn't explain a thing (as far as play-by-play process), even though as I was typing it, from my perspective it totally describes how I am and what I do and what Ni is.

This then reminded me of something I posted a few yrs ago - something I'd written back in 2005 or thereabouts, as I wanted people on here to say what they saw in the writing, and someone responded:

All I see is a continual interplay of Ni -- reducing tons of your own thoughts to truths about what's really happening, and adding that society/other-people-oriented bend of Fe to it all (e.g., begging the question "why are these people laying such disservice to society with <insert Ni-inspired reason here>?")

And the mood of the content sounds like the fiery cauldron of an Idealist.


And I remember back then having a bit of an a-ha, thinking, oh man, what I write, seems so self-evident to me, that I naturally don't feel the need to explain all of the background or the why's as to why I think something, because it seems so 'obvious' to me. Perhaps that's another indicator of dom-Ni... I/we think what we say is utterly obvious and so it doesn't occur to us to expand on certain things. And I realize that probably can't not sound arrogant, but, meh. In the process of trying to nab that underlying theme/truth/probability/perspective/whatever, getting rid of all the extraneous matter, we/I also get rid of the 'details'/process that led me to it in the first place. I guess.

Re. the actual 'process' of Ni - I honestly don't know if I can describe it in the way you are desiring. I'll have to think a bit. And might come back. Not sure I'll be able to do it though.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
I just spent an hour writing the most detailed description of my most signficant Ni premonition, and when I hit submit, it said I couldn't perform that action, cuz I wasn't logged in.

Grahhhhhhhhhhh!!!

:BangHead:
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
I want to know your visions ... tell me your visions. :)

As far as epic themes go, my visions are fairly prosaic. The themes are there cluttering them up, but mostly it's all visions of mechanisms I've come to know and be associated with. And I've been telling the visions all along.

Is the mystique of the function undermined if I admit to using Ni to get by in a normal life?



MV5BMTI0MTg5MjA2NV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwODI4NTcyMQ@@._V1._SY314_CR6,0,214,314_.jpg
 

rav3n

.
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
11,655
if i can speak as an annoyed Ne/Fi for a minute -

so we're trying to understand a function that is not our territory. naturally, we are in a place of submission here. those of us who still seem not to get it may have already been given the answers, but perhaps not in a language that we can understand. it's like Ni doms are explaining something in mandarin chinese to an american kid and chiding and mocking him for not getting it, and for being upset with them. that's why it's so frustrating, and that's probably why most Ne/Fi users are getting pissed off and complaining about Ni arrogance. i might not have a great grasp of Ni, but i suspect i'd be able to at least begin to understand it if someone made an effort to bridge the gap and not speak in koans. but if people keep speaking chinese, then no, i'm not going to get it. uumlau's examples have been helpful, as has kalach's description including extraverted judging, once it got past being insulting. maybe it seems banal and frustrating, but Ne needs lots of information to go off of. if you can describe how Ni "feels", that's helpful too.

i get what you're saying with addressing koans is Ni, but i don't want to just engage Ni, i want to understand what it is on a conceptual level. i know i use it IRL occasionally - i understand it experientially - but i don't really get it. i'd like to know how to go about engaging it, too, because currently a lot of the statements that are pleasing to Ni doms are making me roll my eyes and label them "not enough info" to be of use to me. once i get a better grip on what Ni is, then i can try understanding things from the Ni perspective too, but starting there is really confusing, especially because i'm not sure i totally grasp when i slide from Ne+Fi into Ni.

my point being, i think that if Ni dom/auxs can attempt to explain Ni in depth as a process or at least give a list of characteristics or images or some kind of tangible external information, it'd be very helpful, and the perception of arrogance and Ne complaints would probably go away. sorry kalach, but to some extent, i don't know how to pull my head out of the extraverted toolbox. when we're discussing people feelings, sure, but not when we're talking conceptually. i have Ne and Te as primary processes. my intellectual world is extraverted. trying to understand Ni is trying to get away from that, but i don't know what the other tools are, much less how to use them.

:shrug:
skylights, try not to get frustrated since many of us Ni users can't explain it. Realisations pop out of nowhere. How do you explain this when you yourself, have no idea how it happens?

I'm also not seeing any arrogance. If anything, more a poking fun at Ni. But maybe that's a manifestation of Ni humour.
 
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