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  1. #731
    Psychic Artist Forever's Avatar
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    @uumlau yes I am reading the righteous mind right now too. It's very fascinating. You said a lot of my thoughts so I believe I didn't need to elaborate why as much. I'm still reading.. so I can't have an official opinion but right now it's really pushing my meta-perspective out even further.
    everybody has gone through something that has changed them in a way that they could never go back to the person they once were

  2. #732
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    I really enjoyed The Righteous Mind (a mini summary is included in this post). I think The Righteous Mind includes some very healthy pushback against the WEIRD/liberal perspective, although I'm not sure I buy all of his arguments 100%. I do agree that liberals and conservatives need the leavening of the characteristics of one another, otherwise things tend to run off the rails.

    I think @uumlau's thoughts are interesting on mapping the functions, but not sure I agree 100%. I think partially because I don't think Ni (really N+J) is inherently more introverted than Ne (really N+P)... but NJ is more concerned with bigger patterns than arise and repeat over time, while NP is more focused on matching micro patterns moment to moment (given P vs J).... just like FJ is more concerned with consistent relationships over time, while FP is more concerned with harmonizing with the moment/specifics. Anyway, thanks for the post... good food for thought!
    Last edited by Seymour; 03-15-2016 at 05:56 PM.

  3. #733
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    Some thoughts, because I like thinking about this:

    • At its base, it's pattern recognition. But because it isn't extroverted, it isn't tied to any particular time or place.
    • So what you're apprehending are just abstract patterns, without a particular home to attach themselves to. Images help to "fill in" the details, but only toward the end of clarifying the pattern itself.
    • To see something through Ni is to see it guided by invisible hands. It feels passive & fatalistic. This is where it differs from Ne, which is characteristically active, circumstantial and indeterministic.
    • Sometimes, when feeling particularly stubborn, you "just know". But convincing other people can be difficult, especially if they're equally stubborn. "Oh, you'll see. Just you wait."
    • It can make you deeply perceptive when right, and deeply deluded when wrong. The latter happens more often than anyone would likely want to admit.
    Yep. I would equate NI to a gps system. But because it's subconcious, you're not really aware that you're using it. And, of course, NI users can seem spacy or self-absorbed because they have to turn inward to know what to do. It's scarily accurate very often. When it's wrong-it's a train wreck.
    Extraverted intuitives that I've known seem to use intuition very differently. They always seem to bee scanning the horizon for new connections and opportunities.

  4. #734

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    I like comparing a function to its opposite, so lets do that:

    • Orienting via Ni is to avoid being "led by the nose", so to speak - in other words, to avoid Se
    • You remove yourself from the intrinsic smells, touches, tastes etc. of what "is", and dive deep within yourself, in order to conceptualise alternatives and to look "around the corner" of things, or peer under-the-veil and witness the undertow
    • I've seen Ni associating with what's called paradoxical, or Janusian thinking - the idea of being able to look at something from multiple perspectives at once, thereby giving you an entirely new vantage point from which to reason about things
    • This obviously gives overwhelming strategic value - like multiple beams of light shining on one object, giving you a very "clear" picture of things
    • Ne differs from this in not being convergent or strategic - it's a lot like Se, in that you're being "led by the nose". In this sense, your intuition allows you to "discover" how things branch out in the objective world, rather than conceptualise a single focal point subjectively
    • Of course, to orient via Ni is to miss out on the messy moments of life - all those pesky imperfections and base instincts, that have a tendency to upend your thinking and make you lose perspective
    Hello

  5. #735
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I think partially because I don't think Ni (really N+J) is inherently more introverted than Ne (really N+P)... but NJ is more concerned with bigger patters than arise and repeat over time, while NP is more focused on matching micro patterns moment to moment (given P vs J).... just like FJ is more concerned with consistent relationships over time, while FP is more concerned with harmonizing with the moment/specifics. Anyway, thanks for the post... good food for thought!
    Yes, I love that. It's about a moment-to-moment optimization, crafting this time to a particular vision, about getting the most from right now. If X is today's issue, how do we work with X, adapt to X, optimize, customize to the needs and wants surrounding us related to X. The recognition that this day added to every other this day is what is the sum of a life.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
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  6. #736

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    And here's Philip K. Dick, effectively self-typing as an INTJ:

    Hello

  7. #737
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Yes, I love that. It's about a moment-to-moment optimization, crafting this time to a particular vision, about getting the most from right now. If X is today's issue, how do we work with X, adapt to X, optimize, customize to the needs and wants surrounding us related to X. The recognition that this day added to every other this day is what is the sum of a life.
    How much of that is Ne as opposed to Fi or Ti?
    @Seymour How are you using the word "introverted"? In terms of the popular usage, I agree that Ni isn't "that much more introverted" than Ne. Both Ni and Ne doms are "live in their heads" types. But I see Ne as being extroverted as actively applying abstraction to the here and now, as you suggest, which implies conscious engagement with the environment. Ne dom/aux types tend to communicate in terms of Ne, whereas Ni types tend to hide this aspect of themselves.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #738
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    How much of that is Ne as opposed to Fi or Ti?
    @Seymour How are you using the word "introverted"? In terms of the popular usage, I agree that Ni isn't "that much more introverted" than Ne. Both Ni and Ne doms are "live in their heads" types. But I see Ne as being extroverted as actively applying abstraction to the here and now, as you suggest, which implies conscious engagement with the environment. Ne dom/aux types tend to communicate in terms of Ne, whereas Ni types tend to hide this aspect of themselves.
    So, I'm coming at things from a non-type-dynamics perspective (given that I've been convinced by Reynierse, et al, that there's no evidence whatsoever for type dynamics). Hence, I'm looking at things in terms of what "Ne" actually describes (which is mostly N+P, with perhaps a smudge of "E" thrown in--but only for extraverts).

    So, if one then is describing the intersection and interaction N+P, then it makes sense that N+P isn't fundamentally more extraverted. It's more about the present moment than N+J, but that can be as focused inward as easily as outward. So it might be focused on exploring ideas in one's internal world or jumping from association to association internally. The present moment includes the present interior experience, as well as the present external one.

    Still, I agree that N+J is more opaque and less tied to the current moment, because it is pattern matching across bigger timespans and contexts. Because its chunking mechanism produces bigger associations, it's more mysterious what goes into them.

  9. #739
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    So, I'm coming at things from a non-type-dynamics perspective (given that I've been convinced by Reynierse, et al, that there's no evidence whatsoever for type dynamics). Hence, I'm looking at things in terms of what "Ne" actually describes (which is mostly N+P, with perhaps a smudge of "E" thrown in--but only for extraverts).
    That explains things. Gotta love how one paper is enough to convince people (especially those invested in other typologies). I've read the paper and I'm not convinced. It's an argument from ignorance: "I can't find anything, therefore there isn't anything."

    The main distinction I see is that type dynamics is a qualitative thing, not quantitative. You can measure people answering questions the same way over and over again, and that produces certain statistical correlations, some of which are meaningful. You can't measure people having an "in the grip" experience. You definitely can't measure unconscious things easily with tests aimed at conscious self-understanding. Modern psychology overall has a bias against looking at the unconscious, mostly because it's really difficult to measure. Jung's primary insights were into patterns of how the unconscious mind works, and are the essence of type dynamics.

    So, if one then is describing the intersection and interaction N+P, then it makes sense that N+P isn't fundamentally more extraverted. It's more about the present moment than N+J, but that can be as focused inward as easily as outward. So it might be focused on exploring ideas in one's internal world or jumping from association to association internally. The present moment includes the present interior experience, as well as the present external one.

    Still, I agree that N+J is more opaque and less tied to the current moment, because it is pattern matching across bigger timespans and contexts. Because its chunking mechanism produces bigger associations, it's more mysterious what goes into them.
    Then we simply aren't using the words "extroverted" and "introverted" the same way, at all, which makes it difficult to determine where our observations intersect. I would also note that speculating about "Ni" while rejecting type dynamics is weirdly inconsistent. Not that you have nothing worthwhile to offer, it's just that differences of opinion are less interesting when two people are discussing things with entirely different frameworks.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  10. #740
    mom I'm going out Masokissed's Avatar
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    It's future-planning. NJs just like to make it sound like it's something special.
    So dust off your fuck me pumps
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