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Thread: Ni - What the hell is it?

  1. #671
    Senior Member Array VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    And here's David Lynch to the rescue, summing up Ni:

    Q. But audiences have struggled with trying to work the movie out and, at a certain point, they just want you to tell them what it all means—to you.

    A. Yeah, and I always say the same thing: I think they really know for themselves what it’s about. I think that intuition—the detective in us—puts things together in a way that makes sense for us. They say intuition gives you an inner knowing, but the weird thing about inner knowing is that it’s really hard to communicate that to someone else. As soon as you try, you realize that you don’t have the words, or the ability to say that inner knowing to your friend. But you still know it! It’s really frustrating. I think you can’t communicate it because the knowing is too beautifully abstract. And yet poets can catch an abstraction in words and give you a feeling that you can’t get any other way.

    I think people know what Mulholland Dr. is to them, but they don’t trust it. They want to have someone else tell them. I love people analyzing it, but they don’t need me to help them out. That’s the beautiful thing, to figure things out as a detective. Telling them robs them of the joy of thinking it through and feeling it through and coming to a conclusion.

    Q. And it doesn’t matter if that conclusion isn’t the same as yours?

    A. Right, because even if you get the whole thing, there would still be some abstract elements in it that you’d have to kind of feel-think. You’d have to say, “I kind of understand that, but I don’t know exactly what it is.” Sort of. The frames are always the same on the film—it’s always the same length, and the same soundtrack is always running along it. But the experience in the room changes depending on the audience. That’s another reason why people shouldn’t be told too much, because “knowing” putrefies that experience.
    Feel-think is exactly what Introverted Intuition is, it seems. It bypasses language or any sort of linear analysis and just seems to strike you like a lightning bolt - but it's only hitting you. And trying to put words to it might only result in losing some part of it. It's something you have to feel out and let guide you, but it's a strictly internal and subjective phenomenon.

    https://www.criterion.com/current/po...-mulholland-dr
    Hello

  2. #672
    Senior Member Array serenesam's Avatar
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    Ni is about likelihood of achieving The Blue Zen Brain. INTJs and INFJs are most likely to achieve this state:

    The Blue Zen Brain (INFJ/INTJ) | AnnHolm.net
    "And then, as I got her message, there came a light from her eyes - powerful beams of light." - Nikola Tesla

  3. #673
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    Ni is about likelihood of achieving The Blue Zen Brain. INTJs and INFJs are most likely to achieve this state:

    The Blue Zen Brain (INFJ/INTJ) | AnnHolm.net
    Nardi (who originally produced this work), now prefers to call it an "in the flow" state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  4. #674
    Honeyed Water Array thoughtlost's Avatar
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    I think I believe in the concept of flow, but I think it's interesting that Ni doms/users are more likely to experience this state. It's interesting because it's something positive psychologists are trying to get a majority of people to experience feeling (if I am understanding it correctly).

    So how does that work with someone who does not have Ni in any of their four positions? Does an INFP ever experience 'flow'?
    You are so arbitrary.

  5. #675
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtlost View Post
    I think I believe in the concept of flow, but I think it's interesting that Ni doms/users are more likely to experience this state. It's interesting because it's something positive psychologists are trying to get a majority of people to experience feeling (if I am understanding it correctly).

    So how does that work with someone who does not have Ni in any of their four positions? Does an INFP ever experience 'flow'?
    Nardi saw several different types of flow states.

    Fi types get into flow when they listen.
    Si types get into flow when they review past events/experiences.
    Ni types get into flow almost at will: they just have to "think" about something they're interested in.

    Ti doesn't have "flow" so much as a dissociated state that is higher energy (they dissociate from emotions).

    None of the extroverted functions are associated with anything flow-like. They're all quick and fast and tend to hop from region to region. Ne is the most spectacular, hopping among all regions. Se hops between two regions. Te and Fe instead hop between 3-4 regions and then stop, having reached a conclusion by the last hop.

    But yes, anyone can get into a "flow" state, even Ne doms with their ADD tendencies. In such cases, the flow usually has to do with practice, expertise, or some other kind of "ownership" of what is involved in a task.

    W/r to Ni, as I mention above, it happens whenever they think or problem-solve. The natural Ni state is kind of a flow state. And if you read the article on flow carefully, and read up on the negative aspects of flow, you'll read that those addicted to flow tend to resent the ambiguities of life, all the stuff that is still very important, but just doesn't fit in one's personal flow. For Ni types, that the Se inferior - all the random shit that happens in real life that pulls us out of our personal trance, usually in a physical way.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #676
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Ti doesn't have "flow" so much as a dissociated state that is higher energy (they dissociate from emotions).
    Of course there's a "flow"! ("fully immersed in a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and enjoyment in the process of the activity").
    It's in that thinking itself. We may not think much of the emotions but they're there.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  7. #677
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Of course there's a "flow"! ("fully immersed in a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and enjoyment in the process of the activity").
    It's in that thinking itself. We may not think much of the emotions but they're there.
    That is what dissociation means. The interesting part of the Ti mode is that it's higher energy, and identical to someone in the middle of meeting a new person, or in the process of losing a game.

    It can be regarded as a "higher energy" flow state, if we regard "flow" as any whole-brain state. Learning to play a new game and other activities that are exciting and engaging invoke the highest energy state, and may well also be covered by what is meant by "flow" in psychology.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  8. #678
    Senior Member Array the state i am in's Avatar
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    i started writing this for another thread but decided to post here instead.

    Ni pretty much is what it is to be an assumption-guessing machine. always--how to get to the assumptions holding together the assumptions, the depths of unity. to me Ni-Fe makes it have more of an affective, expressive, wabi sabi/haiku tinge, like imagining being in and through types of qualities of waters, or anything that can externally represent the feeling-body's qualities of experience. and to me, my first examples, the Ni ones that spring up before i get to really examine something with the rest of me, are usually synechdochal. it's a way of like dream symbolizing a recursive thinking process. really winding up the jack in the box, embedding potentials within potentials, fractalizing those common denominators processually, etc.

    i get very squirrely if i don't occasionally have a space to speak in first thoughts with other jokers like me. that might be an enneagrammatic, head type thing too. i enjoy the fleet and the drift of N in motion, bc it feels more real than tangible things given their tangibility by been-there-done-thatness (stats). i guess, my mind just wants to feel that perfect unbreaking flow that occasionally happens between now and the past and becoming new, as a process that is partly self-contained as well. it's kind of like dancing to the flow of whatever it is that is beyond time (and, more logically, reasoning with and against POSSIBILITY rather than ISness).

    this is one of my favorite representations for N-ness. i would think Ni and Ne are just going in the opposite orientations.

    i also wanted to link to the kind of psychedelic whale-song-ness of tough alliance - leg 1, but i can't find a youtube. to me, it conveys an ecological example of just finding those big communicational symmetries that steady out huge oceans of time and space, whereas leg 2 (spotify!) is this perfect 5 min lion-king-ish unfolding of why i love enfps. you can feel the time start to happen, the aliveness coursing and concentrating, to wake you up and hatch you, to start to buzz and move and begin the process of loving being born and growing up, of loving the joy of being experience, of loving being the creative energy.
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  9. #679
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    Here is an example of the "unconscious" products of Ni. Again, everyone has this, but as we see necessitating this meme, not everyone trusts it. Of course, it can be wrong, and this is of course reflecting an Ni perspective, which sees it as most important. (Also, that "vibrations" concept can be taken too far, as causing events you can't possibly have control over. I understand it simply as largely unconscious impressions, which are like "vibrations" because they are so subtle and difficult to really pinpoint).

    "Gut instinct" also often gets associated with Fi, but Fi is a judgment of good/bad, that is deeply internal. This meme is discussing what is technically a judgment of "bad", but the point is the awareness (perception), not the judgment itself.

    So:
    Se: special attention to current sensation; what's before you in the environment
    Si: special attention to individual memorized/recalled sensory data
    Ne: special attention to inferred meanings based on the environmental object itself
    Ni: special attention to inferred meanings based on the subject's individual "gut".
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  10. #680
    FRACTALICIOUS Array phobik's Avatar
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    The hell, it is.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

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