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  1. #661

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    I found a nice juxtaposition from Lenore Thompson, regarding Ni & Ne:

    ENPs are most visible in the first flush of discovery, when they're excited and optimistic. They aggressively seek feedback from the people around them, and they welcome others' involvement in formulating their Intuitions and carrying out their plans.

    INJs are least accessible in the discovery process. Like the prince in the story of "Cinderella", they're solitary, sometimes obsessive, fitting Intuition to expressible terms like the glass slipper to potential brides. Until they've managed a good enough fit between their inner reality and an outward vocabulary, INJs may not even know what they're after, and they won't involve others in formulating their plans.

    The goals these types posit are also inversely related. ENPs, as right-brain types, understand objects in terms of their larger context. They picture an integrated "whole" in which diverse people or diverse views are perfectly integrated - a global village, a unified theory, a consolidation of disciplines, a mind-body-spirit connection.

    The left brain INJs understand context as a mental phenomenon, something that people bring to the outer world from within. Thus, they don't see "wholeness" as an integrated endpoint. Wholeness, for INJs, is the chaotic beginning - raw sensory input without meaning.
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  2. #662
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    ENPs might want to interact with people during their discovery process, but are actually very private about formulating and executing plans (Ti/Fi).

    INJs don't interact much during their discovery process, but are remarkably public about formulating and executing plans (Te/Fe).
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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    Member Neshama's Avatar
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    This is what gave me such trouble in figuring out my type. The difference between Ni and Ne is often very vague in descriptions. I remember one article calling Ni basically more specific than Ne, as if there were some standard, objective notion of what's specific in regards to intuition.
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  4. #664
    can't handcuff the wind Doomsday McFeral's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    ENPs might want to interact with people during their discovery process, but are actually very private about formulating and executing plans (Ti/Fi).

    INJs don't interact much during their discovery process, but are remarkably public about formulating and executing plans (Te/Fe).
    To expound (or, it feels slightly more precise to me to say it thusly): ENPs might need people to interact with during their discovery process, because it happens externally and the work needs to be done aloud, but those people have less influence than it would appear on the surface.

    Whilst INJs don't or can't interact during the discovery process, it is influenced more by other people than it appears on the surface.


    The line between "don't" and "can't" is an elusive one. Whenever I interact with someone who wants/expects some form of unfettered access to that discovery process, a piece of me dies inside. And where I can't easily distance them/block them out, it can escalate rather quickly into an amazingly distressful situation. I will actually have a visceral sick reaction to them. But on the other hand- people who can patiently wait for it and give me credit for how much influence they did have get my undying loyalty and appreciation.

    eta: There actually are exceptions- like, if I have accumulated a lot of experience of someone having a lot of wisdom in some regard, then I will actually go to them sooner in that 'discovery process' and they will be more directly involved in it. But that only happens with repeated experience of them earning that position. People who feel like they 'deserve' that much credit and try to force their immediate influence into my 'discovery process'- and get angry, aggressive, emotionally coercive and/or manipulative to get their foot in the door- generally get instinctively so far locked out that I only hear a modicum of what they say henceforth. This seems to be a relatively universal INFJ instinct, and in this forum it's been interesting to see: (1) it really, really infuriates people; and (2) the things people tell themselves, about why their aggressive, emotionally coercive/manipulative attempt to force open the door doesn't work.

    I wouldn't know how to explain the NiTe version, but I know they do something similar. There's plenty of complaining about them in this regard as well.

    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  5. #665
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    ENPs might want to interact with people during their discovery process, but are actually very private about formulating and executing plans (Ti/Fi).

    INJs don't interact much during their discovery process, but are remarkably public about formulating and executing plans (Te/Fe).
    What is an example of each of these processes?

    I tend to create in private, but since it's often music, the execution requires more external means, although I tend to make choices to avoid it.
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  6. #666
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    What is an example of each of these processes?

    I tend to create in private, but since it's often music, the execution requires more external means, although I tend to make choices to avoid it.
    Ne just needs external contact to be inspired. The inspiration might be a book one is reading, or a TV show, or another person, or seeing a pattern of clouds ... as long as it isn't an "internal" observation. That externality then triggers a lot of other possibilities in the Ne mind that fit the same pattern without necessarily fitting the same context. When evaluating/deciding, however, Ti/Fi are very resistant to interaction with the world: they're highly personal, and anyone who tries to intrude on that process is going to be regarded as "bossy" or "manipulative". That doesn't mean that Ne doms never open up with respect to their internal decision process, but it's very very rare, and generally not in terms that are useful to the typical Je type.

    Ni doms, on the other hand, find their inspiration within (as do Si, Ti and Fi doms, but that's a larger discussion). Ni doms feel unsure about things until given time to contemplate. Such contemplation can resemble Ji processes, but it's really very different. There is no emotion associated with it, in fact there is no conscious thought associated with it. (This is also true for Si, but again, that's a larger discussion.) Ni gathers information, juggles it, synthesizes it. What is known is combined with new knowledge, and a new synthesis is created. Unlike Ne it isn't multiple possibilities, but rather alternative potentialities.

    Yeah, possibilities <=> potentialities is vague, but words kind of fail here. Let's just say that possibilities exist without context, while potentialities exist within a context. So it's possible that aliens might invade the Earth tomorrow, while a potentiality exists that you might attempt some task and achieve a desired result.

    When actively making a particular potentiality come to pass, the process then becomes extroverted and is handled in terms of Te/Fe. At this stage, a particular choice has been made and interaction with external people and things is usually necessary to proceed any further. Because the decision has already been made, aux-Je types can look more sure-minded than they really are. Underneath the hood, a lot of second-guessing is going on. Ni tries to stay aware of anything new that comes up that might change the original decision, but that self-questioning isn't outwardly expressed. Contrast with Ne doms where the self-questioning is always outwardly expressed, but inwardly they are very steadfast w/r to decisions and beliefs.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #667
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    After watching Carl Jung discuss Ni, I think some of my experiences that I attribute to imagination are Ni related.

    I have a lot of life experiences that I am in the process of healing from, and one of my most effective therapies occurs for me when I'm in a hot tub of water. Striking imagery comes to me and my body responds in an involuntary manner. I've had a long history of chronic muscle tension and pain, and I get these vivid images that thin, blue, iridescent strands are leaving my muscles. Sometimes they depart quickly in a swarm and my muscles jerk heavily in response as they are letting go. It is a disturbing experience and I haven't gotten a good explanation medically, but I think it is a good thing that something is being released. I've also had striking imagery of an iridescent goo that is mostly pearly white with shimmers of all rainbow colors slowly melting through me, permeating every cell of my body, and that can also trigger the muscle releases. When I get overwhelmed, I end up in a small, white concrete or marble pond on a distant planet that has no other inhabitants except for me and one robot. The sky is an intense blue, the marble a bright white, and I am near a structure with strong geometric lines, but it is likely the only structure on the planet. I can feel the isolation, almost the fear of it, but also the safety of it.

    I also become an embryo with no memories, good or bad, but just the peaceful darkness of unknowing. There are also glimmers of anticipation at being able to experience the sun, the sound of water, the sensation of running, etc. all again for the first time. I see everything in my life drifting away into a tunnel of darkness and I just let go indiscriminately. It is scary to let go of what could be good also, but now it feels necessary to let go of it all with no judgement on any of it, and then I see it slide away into the blackness of infinity.
    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    That part that I bolded and made larger is something that I've heard about Ni, but am never quite certain how to relate to it. I think the introverted Judging functions (Ti and Fi) build up inner frameworks of reasoned associations in which you can make the judgment call on each new piece of data whether it fits the framework and should be accepted or it doesn't fit the framework and therefore not be accepted.

    I don't think the perceiving functions operate in that manner. Se takes in all the sensations of the moment. Si takes in every experience, however it was presented in life, Ne takes in the unseen connections of the moment, and Ni internalizes the unseen connections in a more personal manner. I tend to feel as though Ni is a data dump that I wish to god I could reject at times. I wish I could reject parts of it, but life feels like an ongoing tidal wave of intangible, unverifiable information. I don't think Pi (introverted perception) has the advantage that Ji (introverted Judging) experiences in its ability to filter before data is internalized. It can only filter afterwards, but for myself (and I can only speak for myself) it feels like life constantly throws millions of puzzle pieces at me, so many that I am surrounded by mountains of these. I obsessively try to piece them together. Each time I find one that doesn't fit, I don't dare throw it away because it might fit later on. In the same way Si doesn't get to choose its life experiences, it doesn't choose the sensations that build its sense of normalcy and nostalgia, neither does Ni. Ni doesn't let you choose anything - it isn't a judging function. One must rely on their other judging function to deal with it. When Ni is the dominant function, then you deal with this ongoing tidal wave and you only wish something would filter it first, but no such luck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Forever View Post

    The highlighted portion would be wrong use of Fe and Te in tandem with Ni, Ni perceives not judges is where I would see it at. Ni synthesizes so even accepts contradictory information, if it were to deny it, it's going further from reality.
    My point was about these "images" that come up. We assume, that in every thought processes, all functions are involved, including "undifferentiated" ones. In other words, there are judgments involved, determining whether the image or any inferences from it are "true or false [i.e. "an illusion"]" or "good or bad" (and I don't mean necessarily always an INFJ's "aux. Fe", "tert. Ti" or even "shadow Fi or Te"; all of which are sorts of partial "differentiations" of the eight function-attitudes). So what you are reading as judgments in that, that's not what I [nor Ben] are attributing to Ni.
    The way I understand it now, backed up by your examples, is that these images are coming up all the time. I basically tune them out, unless they happen to fit some external pattern I may be thinking of. So I never even thought of them as the products of one of these "functions", and hence why it took so long for me to really understand what Ni is.

    For you, they'll come up like that, and naturally, they'll also come up when deliberately called to inform some data (like an existing pattern you're presented with), and hence, [actively] "search[ing] within".
    This is what really needs clarification, for this is the point where it's so easy to get thrown off (as to which function is which). I'll "look within" to memory, for a fitting pattern, but that's really Si internalizing an Ne external pattern. It's not the same as what you're describing that already comes up, directly from within (seeming out of nowhere, not pulled from somewhere else), and not conscious memory.

    This further verifies Berens/Montoya's new terms "Realizing" and "Inquiring". Both Si and Ne end up relying more on memory, and thus also end up "inquiring" (asking questions) in order to either match to what's known, or look for other possibilities. Se on the other hand, simply takes whatever's there in the material world. Ni takes whatever comes up from the unconscious. Neither try to compare it with anything else (so again, it will be the judgment function that does that). So they both directly "realize" things.

    So “conscious” (according to Jung) is whatever is sensory (material) and externally oriented (environmental). Internal (individual) is not really conscious, because you’re not perceiving it from the real world; it’s basically an image you’re bringing up yourself.
    Se=”consciousness of consciousness” (environmental [direct] material awareness)
    Si=”unconsciousness of consciousness” (individually referenced material awareness)
    Ne=”consciousness of unconsciousness” (environmentally referenced hypothetical awareness)
    Ni=”unconsciousness of unconsciousness” (individually conjured hypothetical awareness; and hence the hardest to understand or explain).

    So both Ni and Se end up as “meta” forms; hence, a straight “realizing”.
    If they hadn't come up with those terms, I may have just named Ne/Si in terms of "memory", and Se/Ni in terms of "meta" (which often gets associated with Ni alone, but Se fits the term in its more tangible way. I had tried "circumspective, meaning "looks around". I was on to the right idea, but had trouble naming the other tandems; if anyone remembers "prostatospective" [look directly at] I had considered for Se/Ni).

    I'm also thinking of another Ni/Ne blurring of the lines, when I'll often get negative intuitions, and then begin analyzing them, and seeing how they fit other external patterns. I believe the initial intuition is sometimes (at least) genuinely introverted (and often fitting the "Senex" role, usually involving some issue where I feel my ego is being negated, which is what that complex is about), but then when I begin sorting out what's what and how the patterns fit ones I'm familiar with (often writing it down in my own ponderings), I'm turning "without", and making it extraverted, (going from the more "critical" ego state to my natural "supporting" (aux.) one, and with ego's dom. Ti determining "true/false", of course).
    This is another thing that can throw someone off.
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  8. #668
    Senior Member Ribonuke's Avatar
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    Hard to explain; a lot of the times I will think I'm using it when I use mental algebra (such as solving for the metaphorical 'x' when 'x + y = z'), but then realize those times I am actually using my Aux Ti.

    Oftentimes, I've heard Ni described as what gets us to put all the pieces together and see the bigger picture, even if it cannot be seen all at once. It's like how when piece together the same object from two different vantage points, you can see a 3D image. Or, alternately, it's like only being able to see islands (Se-based data) and then being able to see the landmass connecting them underneath the ocean; being able to fathom or understand the shape or nature of the landmass, in spite of it being hidden from direct view underneath the ocean, is Ni.

    This is as opposed to Ne, which doesn't require any sort of anchor; Si can help guide it with context, and Ti/Fi can help guide it with purpose, but Ne is ultimately just about letting the ideas flow, branch off, diverge, brainstorm, etc. It's less about 'connecting the dots' the same way Ni desires.

    Ne enjoys chaos, creating new possibilities; Ni enjoys order, using possibilities to fill in the gaps.

  9. #669
    corona Hawthorne's Avatar
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    As an Ni inferior person, I experience it as the angel winged creature on my left shoulder telling me to be more cautious and considerate of the consequences of my actions.

    At least, that's what I think it's saying. I try not to pay too much attention to it tbh.

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    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Just came up with a comparison of all four perception functions that should really bring light on what Ni really is:

    This involves the fact that all "perception" basically produces "images" (and not necessarily just "visual" ones, You can form imagery by senses like touch as well). It's all about whether the images match what's in the environment, and who can access them.

    Se: individual’s images match current environment
    Si: individual’s images ONCE matched the environment, but currently can only be held among individuals sharing the experience

    Ne: individual’s images never matched environment, but are still based on the environment (and thus others can possibly be made to experience them)
    Ni: individual’s images have never matched the environment, and can only be directly perceived by the individual.
    (and hence, why it’s so hard to explain).
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