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  1. #631
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Ben Kovitz, who ran the old "Lenore Thomson wiki" (and is very influenced by her as I am) was discussing the functions on a list, and made this great explanation of Ni and its difference from Ne:

    "Intuition is guessing—or rather, orienting by what seems to you to be a good guess even though the facts aren't in. Why does it seem like such a good guess? Well, with Extraverted Intuition, you can point out the things [i.e. in the environment="e"] that suggest your guess so that other people start to see the possibility, too; with Introverted Intuition, you can't. WIth Extraverted Intuition, the guess keeps changing as new information is revealed [again, from the environment]: as parts of the big picture get filled in, your guess about the whole absorbs them and revises in unpredictable ways. You need a constant influx of new information to keep triggering you to revise your guesses. With Introverted Intuition, the guess might start "reply hazy, try later" and gradually clarify, but it's somewhat impervious to new information. You search within [individually="i"], ideas come, and you trust them. If information comes in that contradicts the guess, you just tune it out or call it an illusion.
    So the Introverted Intuitive attitude aims at getting ahead of all consciously accessible information—including, especially, direct experience."

    This seems to be the best explanation I've seen, especially regarding what really makes it "internal" or introverted. (It's often simply called "the unconscious", which he had also just used, but as I pointed out, "unconscious" has several uses, and so Jung and others' definitions with that term never "clicked" for me. I then figured it involved some sort of "impressions" that come up, like "hunches", and I didn't know whether these were just things that were "there" involuntarily, or not, but saying it's a "guess" that you deliberately look within to see what ideas come up, really clarifies it for me). It's the "trust" in these ideas that makes it an introverted attitude. With me, I keep looking on the outside (and this is actually stuff "stored in memory" as Lenore puts it, and this helps me, as "memory" is technically "inside", so it begged the question of the real difference with Ni's "internal" source and Ne's "memory". Ne is memory of externally based patterns (such as "contexts") you can guess from, while Ni is just stuff from the unconscious that you basically seek to fill in the information. (Hence, "freeing sense impressions from their larger [external] contexts" as Lenore puts it).
    Me; I'll get these internal images or sense of things, but I don't trust them. They're just "there", and I almost always assume it's "illusion" or irrelevent. (To the point that I did not even know these were what Ni was based off of, and what could also be used to fill in a situation).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  2. #632
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    My intuition never feels like a guess....I just know it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Me; I'll get these internal images or sense of things, but I don't trust them. They're just "there", and I almost always assume it's "illusion" or irrelevent. (To the point that I did not even know these were what Ni was based off of, and what could also be used to fill in a situation).
    I stopped trusting my intuition for years....as I made way too many choices based on it that I didn't like the outcomes....not that it was wrong, I just didn't like the outcomes.

    But I am much, much in touch with myself now that I roll with my intuition. It might need some framing to make sense of it, but it is far better to trust yourself and be yourself rather than some artificial construct fearful of their own guidance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

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    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984

  3. #633
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Ni, from Gary Hartzler's book:
    Functions of Type: Activities to Develop the Eight Jungian Functions - Gary Hartzler, Margaret Hartzler - Google Books

    Scroll down to read the entire section; it's not just one page.

  4. #634
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Ni, from Gary Hartzler's book:
    Functions of Type: Activities to Develop the Eight Jungian Functions - Gary Hartzler, Margaret Hartzler - Google Books

    Scroll down to read the entire section; it's not just one page.

    The way most people think of typology here doesn't allow for an individual function. They view someone as consisting of only two functions, and that's it.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  5. #635
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
    The way most people think of typology here doesn't allow for an individual function. They view someone as consisting of only two functions, and that's it.
    I don't care what most people do.

  6. #636
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Hartzler is good, but that description I find typical, in not spelling out clear enough where these "abstract ideas, images and/or conceptualizations" come from. It says the function "resolve[s] these ideas and images into symbols", which it then "further attaches subjective meaning" to them, but this is not really getting straight at the point that the "images" are subjectively derived [i.e. "internal"] as well. It's easy to get distracted with some of those terms, so we end up fumbling through all of these descriptions of what Ni does, and not really what it is.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  7. #637
    HAHHAHHAH! INTJ123's Avatar
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    Ni doms just day dream a lot. You want to experience Ni then just day dream away, dream with your eyes open.....
    Likes uumlau liked this post

  8. #638
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    After watching Carl Jung discuss Ni, I think some of my experiences that I attribute to imagination are Ni related.

    I have a lot of life experiences that I am in the process of healing from, and one of my most effective therapies occurs for me when I'm in a hot tub of water. Striking imagery comes to me and my body responds in an involuntary manner. I've had a long history of chronic muscle tension and pain, and I get these vivid images that thin, blue, iridescent strands are leaving my muscles. Sometimes they depart quickly in a swarm and my muscles jerk heavily in response as they are letting go. It is a disturbing experience and I haven't gotten a good explanation medically, but I think it is a good thing that something is being released. I've also had striking imagery of an iridescent goo that is mostly pearly white with shimmers of all rainbow colors slowly melting through me, permeating every cell of my body, and that can also trigger the muscle releases. When I get overwhelmed, I end up in a small, white concrete or marble pond on a distant planet that has no other inhabitants except for me and one robot. The sky is an intense blue, the marble a bright white, and I am near a structure with strong geometric lines, but it is likely the only structure on the planet. I can feel the isolation, almost the fear of it, but also the safety of it.

    I also become an embryo with no memories, good or bad, but just the peaceful darkness of unknowing. There are also glimmers of anticipation at being able to experience the sun, the sound of water, the sensation of running, etc. all again for the first time. I see everything in my life drifting away into a tunnel of darkness and I just let go indiscriminately. It is scary to let go of what could be good also, but now it feels necessary to let go of it all with no judgement on any of it, and then I see it slide away into the blackness of infinity.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #639
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Ben Kovitz, who ran the old "Lenore Thomson wiki" (and is very influenced by her as I am) was discussing the functions on a list, and made this great explanation of Ni and its difference from Ne:

    "Intuition is guessing—or rather, orienting by what seems to you to be a good guess even though the facts aren't in. Why does it seem like such a good guess? Well, with Extraverted Intuition, you can point out the things [i.e. in the environment="e"] that suggest your guess so that other people start to see the possibility, too; with Introverted Intuition, you can't. WIth Extraverted Intuition, the guess keeps changing as new information is revealed [again, from the environment]: as parts of the big picture get filled in, your guess about the whole absorbs them and revises in unpredictable ways. You need a constant influx of new information to keep triggering you to revise your guesses. With Introverted Intuition, the guess might start "reply hazy, try later" and gradually clarify, but it's somewhat impervious to new information. You search within [individually="i"], ideas come, and you trust them. If information comes in that contradicts the guess, you just tune it out or call it an illusion.
    So the Introverted Intuitive attitude aims at getting ahead of all consciously accessible information—including, especially, direct experience."

    This seems to be the best explanation I've seen, especially regarding what really makes it "internal" or introverted. (It's often simply called "the unconscious", which he had also just used, but as I pointed out, "unconscious" has several uses, and so Jung and others' definitions with that term never "clicked" for me. I then figured it involved some sort of "impressions" that come up, like "hunches", and I didn't know whether these were just things that were "there" involuntarily, or not, but saying it's a "guess" that you deliberately look within to see what ideas come up, really clarifies it for me). It's the "trust" in these ideas that makes it an introverted attitude. With me, I keep looking on the outside (and this is actually stuff "stored in memory" as Lenore puts it, and this helps me, as "memory" is technically "inside", so it begged the question of the real difference with Ni's "internal" source and Ne's "memory". Ne is memory of externally based patterns (such as "contexts") you can guess from, while Ni is just stuff from the unconscious that you basically seek to fill in the information. (Hence, "freeing sense impressions from their larger [external] contexts" as Lenore puts it).
    Me; I'll get these internal images or sense of things, but I don't trust them. They're just "there", and I almost always assume it's "illusion" or irrelevent. (To the point that I did not even know these were what Ni was based off of, and what could also be used to fill in a situation).
    That part that I bolded and made larger is something that I've heard about Ni, but am never quite certain how to relate to it. I think the introverted Judging functions (Ti and Fi) build up inner frameworks of reasoned associations in which you can make the judgment call on each new piece of data whether it fits the framework and should be accepted or it doesn't fit the framework and therefore not be accepted.

    I don't think the perceiving functions operate in that manner. Se takes in all the sensations of the moment. Si takes in every experience, however it was presented in life, Ne takes in the unseen connections of the moment, and Ni internalizes the unseen connections in a more personal manner. I tend to feel as though Ni is a data dump that I wish to god I could reject at times. I wish I could reject parts of it, but life feels like an ongoing tidal wave of intangible, unverifiable information. I don't think Pi (introverted perception) has the advantage that Ji (introverted Judging) experiences in its ability to filter before data is internalized. It can only filter afterwards, but for myself (and I can only speak for myself) it feels like life constantly throws millions of puzzle pieces at me, so many that I am surrounded by mountains of these. I obsessively try to piece them together. Each time I find one that doesn't fit, I don't dare throw it away because it might fit later on. In the same way Si doesn't get to choose its life experiences, it doesn't choose the sensations that build its sense of normalcy and nostalgia, neither does Ni. Ni doesn't let you choose anything - it isn't a judging function. One must rely on their other judging function to deal with it. When Ni is the dominant function, then you deal with this ongoing tidal wave and you only wish something would filter it first, but no such luck.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  10. #640
    Anamolic Amalgamation Forever's Avatar
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    @fia @Eric B

    The highlighted portion would be wrong use of Fe and Te in tandem with Ni, Ni perceives not judges is where I would see it at. Ni synthesizes so even accepts contradictory information, if it were to deny it, it's going further from reality.
    Likes labyrinthine, uumlau liked this post

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