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  1. #621
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    From a Ghost Adventures forum:

    'My fiancé had some family pass away tragically in a car accident. Two weeks ago I was driving down the highway when the Carrie Underwood song "Temporary Home" came on the radio. I got cold and goosebumps; I knew that they were there' [cleaned up for grammar]. In other words, she believes the car accident victims were there with her in the car as ghosts.

    Chances are this person is either an ISFJ or an INFJ. Because when an introverted perceiving function is dominant, it gives irrational conviction to the belief; and when a Feeling function is secondary, it is far less likely to question the belief than a Thinking function would.
    Let me use this an example of how the perceiving dominant function deals with that information. The judging function will hear the story about ghost and dismiss it for not being logical. It doesn't fit the preconceived notion of reality and therefore has no meaning.

    I hear that story and become curious about why this person experienced "ghosts". It is relevant information, although without using a judging function it has no inherent meaning. Without adding the judging function, it is neither true nor false. It isn't about the credibility of the existence of ghosts. I see an individual with an experience and there is some reason for that experience. Letting go of all morality and logic, the reasons could include the existence of ghosts or it could be a psychological phemonmen. Regardless of whether it is a tangible fact or not, it is interesting that a human being would have that experience. I would take that and draw no conclusion, but just tuck it away. I've had similar "feelings" at various times in my life and being a strongly Ni- perceiving dominant person, I don't pass judgment on those experiences. They do not make me believe in ghosts and they don't make me not believe. It provides another instance when a human being believes they have perceived a loved one in a non-tangible form. That's interesting to me because I don't have an explanation as to why people keep experiencing such things. It doesn't prove that their perception and manner of describing it have any basis in concrete fact, but that doesn't mean it has nothing to do with reality. Imagination is part of reality even though it is intangible. Such information ends up in my metaphorical pile of puzzle pieces that don't fit into the internal frameworks that make sense to me. I'm equally interested in the intangible, metaphysical, abstract, and metaphorical as having meaning and information about reality as I am interested in the measurable and verifiable. Different sorts of data require different tools to process. Some tools deal with identifying concrete "facts', other tools are useful for processing speculation.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)
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  2. #622
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Let me use this an example of how the perceiving dominant function deals with that information. The judging function will hear the story about ghost and dismiss it for not being logical. It doesn't fit the preconceived notion of reality and therefore has no meaning.

    I hear that story and become curious about why this person experienced "ghosts". It is relevant information, although without using a judging function it has no inherent meaning. Without adding the judging function, it is neither true nor false. It isn't about the credibility of the existence of ghosts. I see an individual with an experience and there is some reason for that experience. Letting go of all morality and logic, the reasons could include the existence of ghosts or it could be a psychological phemonmen. Regardless of whether it is a tangible fact or not, it is interesting that a human being would have that experience. I would take that and draw no conclusion, but just tuck it away. I've had similar "feelings" at various times in my life and being a strongly Ni- perceiving dominant person, I don't pass judgment on those experiences. They do not make me believe in ghosts and they don't make me not believe. It provides another instance when a human being believes they have perceived a loved one in a non-tangible form. That's interesting to me because I don't have an explanation as to why people keep experiencing such things. It doesn't prove that their perception and manner of describing it have any basis in concrete fact, but that doesn't mean it has nothing to do with reality. Imagination is part of reality even though it is intangible. Such information ends up in my metaphorical pile of puzzle pieces that don't fit into the internal frameworks that make sense to me. I'm equally interested in the intangible, metaphysical, abstract, and metaphorical as having meaning and information about reality as I am interested in the measurable and verifiable. Different sorts of data require different tools to process. Some tools deal with identifying concrete "facts', other tools are useful for processing speculation.
    I've read Bagan's book and he was the same way until he "came face-to-face" with a ghost. Until that time he didn't think about ghosts. I've read his personal ghost story and what could make it more convincing is the fact that these strange events went on for a week before they finally came face-to-face with each other. The same goes for the person who felt an invisible presence in her car. She's a believer anyway.

    So while I'm not negating anything you say at all, there is a difference between those who are convinced and those who are unconvinced.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #623
    A wannabe dog
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    Once upon a time, there is a murder case that nobody is able to resolve.

    Then came along this great detective who is an Ni dom. He went to the crime scene, looked around the house for evidences, and then he came across this book that has a red strand of hair in it.

    He immediately started saying, "I know who the murderer is."

    "Who???!" Everybody started asking out of curiosity.

    "His brother, Sam, is the murderer," he replied.

    "How did you know?"

    "Because I was walking pass the victim's bedroom earlier and I saw this family portrait with Sam in it, and his hair was red inside that family portrait. He is the only one with red hair in the family. And I actually found his red hair in the diary book of the victim. And then I looked at the handwriting of the "suicidal entry" in the diary book, and I compared that handwriting with other handwriting in that diary book, and I realized that it's a different handwriting, it's written by 2 different people. Then I went into Sam's bedroom and I found one of his literature poem that he wrote during his high school days. I compared the handwriting of that poem with the handwriting of that "suicidal entry" in the victim's diary, and I realized it's the exact same handwriting. Somehow, I managed to connect all the dots together and therefore, conclude that Sam is the murderer."

  4. #624
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    I've read Bagan's book and he was the same way until he "came face-to-face" with a ghost. Until that time he didn't think about ghosts. I've read his personal ghost story and what would make it more convincing is the fact that these strange events went on for a week before they finally came face-to-face with each other. The same goes for the person who felt an invisible presence in her car.

    So while I'm not negating anything you say at all, there is a difference between those who are convinced and those who are unconvinced.
    The person you describe may have certitude about reality based on feeling and experience over definable fact.

    I have found in many discussion there can be a disconnect if someone has a strong judging preference that assumes there are two reactions to information
    1. embrace it as fact
    2. dismiss it as false.
    There is a third option that is the home of pure Perception and that is to
    3. observe and wonder w/o conclusion

    I've had some rather strange experiences and "saw" various ghosts while living in one particular apartment, but interestingly enough, it didn't make me believe in ghosts. It helped that one apparition was of my current boyfriend who lived down the street, so I researched and found information on hypnopompic hallucinations that occur at the edge of sleep. I've also had a strong "feeling" that recently deceased people are present or viewing the world through my eyes, but I don't draw a conclusion about it. The most significant experience was when my former partner's dog died, I have a vivid feeling for the next three days that he was viewing the world through my eyes. Every detail and impression lined up with how I would expect the dog to see the world, even feeling fatigue over language use in thought. I live without conclusion about it. The most probable explanation based on everything in my internal framework is that it is a powerful psychological phenomenon for dealing with loss. Because the experience was so vivd and it felt like I learned new information through it, there is a part of me that goes back to those concepts from physicists that "time is an illusion" or from the Buddhists that "separateness is an illusion" that makes me wonder if when our perceptions fall outside of our assumptions about concrete space and linear time, that it could be possible that we are viewing that more fundamental aspect of reality in which everything exists as a singularity of space and time. I don't think that is fact, but I remember the experiences as providing information about reality, whether it is merely a neurological phenomenon or that much of our perceived reality is an illusion.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)
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  5. #625
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    The person you describe may have certitude about reality based on feeling and experience over definable fact.

    I have found in many discussion there can be a disconnect if someone has a strong judging preference that assumes there are two reactions to information
    1. embrace it as fact
    2. dismiss it as false.
    There is a third option that is the home of pure Perception and that is to
    3. observe and wonder w/o conclusion

    I've had some rather strange experiences and "saw" various ghosts while living in one particular apartment, but interestingly enough, it didn't make me believe in ghosts. It helped that one apparition was of my current boyfriend who lived down the street, so I researched and found information on hypnopompic hallucinations that occur at the edge of sleep. I've also had a strong "feeling" that recently deceased people are present or viewing the world through my eyes, but I don't draw a conclusion about it. The most significant experience was when my former partner's dog died, I have a vivid feeling for the next three days that he was viewing the world through my eyes. Every detail and impression lined up with how I would expect the dog to see the world, even feeling fatigue over language use in thought. I live without conclusion about it. The most probable explanation based on everything in my internal framework is that it is a powerful psychological phenomenon for dealing with loss. Because the experience was so vivd and it felt like I learned new information through it, there is a part of me that goes back to those concepts from physicists that "time is an illusion" or from the Buddhists that "separateness is an illusion" that makes me wonder if when our perceptions fall outside of our assumptions about concrete space and linear time, that it could be possible that we are viewing that more fundamental aspect of reality in which everything exists as a singularity of space and time. I don't think that is fact, but I remember the experiences as providing information about reality, whether it is merely a neurological phenomenon or that much of our perceived reality is an illusion.
    1. embrace it as fact
    2. dismiss it as false.
    There is a third option that is the home of pure Perception and that is to
    3. observe and wonder w/o conclusion

    I agree with that list. But what causes 1, 2, or 3 to occur? What drives that choice?

    There has to be a factor outside of function analysis. In Zak Bagans case, that would be the feeling of purposelessness he describers in his book. Chasing ghosts gives his life purpose.

    So as usual, I'm not disagreeing with you. I have nothing against pure perception or objective awareness which are the same as withholding judgment. "Hypnopompic" is a new term to me, although I'd heard of "hypnagogic" before. I've had hypnagogic experiences (which were predictions about fortune misfortune) and I've also had hypnopompic experiences.

    On a related side note, some of the ghost clips that I've seen on Ghost Adventures indicate that some spirits want people to be asleep before they try to influence them.

    I don't want this to stray far from the Ni topic, or else we will experience the misfortune of having our posts Graveyarded. But I would just like to add that even if multiple people experience the same physically inexplicable incident while being wide awake, most if not all scientists will dismiss it as a mass hallucination (option 2).
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”
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  6. #626
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    I have an example of option 3 (observer and wonder without conclusion) -

    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”
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  7. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post

    Gregor Samsa

  8. #628
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    I have an example of option 3 (observer and wonder without conclusion) -

    OMG this shit really scares me! wtf!
    @Destiny that story of the detective could easily be applied to an Ne-dom person too. I dont see what's so particularly Ni about it. In fact, most of the descriptions and examples I've read on this thread of Ni I think could easily be Ne (I see myself possibly doing them)
    @fia jesus! you are making me terrified with these stories of ghosts and blah. grrr please put a spoiler for me (im not kidding)

  9. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    @Destiny that story of the detective could easily be applied to an Ne-dom person too. I dont see what's so particularly Ni about it. In fact, most of the descriptions and examples I've read on this thread of Ni I think could easily be Ne (I see myself possibly doing them)
    It sounds like deductive reasoning, which I think is more Ne (external > objective > contextual). So I disagree with Destiny. Ni is more inductive (subjective) > Thinking about Mal's examples.

  10. #630
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    I have an example of option 3 (observer and wonder without conclusion) -

    Is this what happens when someone gets bitten by a radioactive beetle during mating season?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)
    Likes Mal12345 liked this post

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